Well, after today's incident, I have decided to hang up these keys and buy a metropass. I was driving a main road (60 km/h speed limit ) and I was doing approx. 60-70 (learned my lesson and stopped speeding excessively). So a car rolls a red stop and cuts me off. I slam on the brakes and swerve into the left lane (checking to see if it was clear first) and avoid hitting the car. As I pull into a plaza (approx. 500m from where the incident took place) I see an officer barrel in behind me and pull me over. As I was shocked, I pulled over and had all my information ready for him as I usually do. Before he even told me why he pulled me over, he said "that maneuver you pulled is Dangerous Driving. Would you like to spend the night in jail?" I was shocked, and scared at the same time, so I started stuttering like an idiot. He then proceeded to say I should not be on the road, and how its young drivers like myself responsible for all these accident fatalities. I just kept repeating I'm sorry multiple times. Eventually he ended up going back to the cruiser with all my information (he made me take it out of the plastic holder my.insurance company provided) and comes back with a careless charge. I was baffled to be honest. I know the usual, request disclosure, plead not guilty, etc. My question to the forum is: Has any officer/any person lay a charge/ been charged for avoiding an accident?
Well, after today's incident, I have decided to hang up these keys and buy a metropass.
I was driving a main road (60 km/h speed limit ) and I was doing approx. 60-70 (learned my lesson and stopped speeding excessively). So a car rolls a red stop and cuts me off. I slam on the brakes and swerve into the left lane (checking to see if it was clear first) and avoid hitting the car. As I pull into a plaza (approx. 500m from where the incident took place) I see an officer barrel in behind me and pull me over. As I was shocked, I pulled over and had all my information ready for him as I usually do. Before he even told me why he pulled me over, he said "that maneuver you pulled is Dangerous Driving. Would you like to spend the night in jail?" I was shocked, and scared at the same time, so I started stuttering like an idiot. He then proceeded to say I should not be on the road, and how its young drivers like myself responsible for all these accident fatalities. I just kept repeating I'm sorry multiple times. Eventually he ended up going back to the cruiser with all my information (he made me take it out of the plastic holder my.insurance company provided) and comes back with a careless charge. I was baffled to be honest. I know the usual, request disclosure, plead not guilty, etc.
My question to the forum is:
Has any officer/any person lay a charge/ been charged for avoiding an accident?
it will be interesting to read the officers notes and his account of the situation. Apparently he did not see the accident avoidance part. Your account of the situation seems reasonable that you were avoiding an accident, and your testimony at trial would go a long way to getting the charge dropped. Careless is a tougher charge for the prosecution to prove, so it might be in your best interst to fight the careless charge and not take a plea deal.
it will be interesting to read the officers notes and his account of the situation. Apparently he did not see the accident avoidance part. Your account of the situation seems reasonable that you were avoiding an accident, and your testimony at trial would go a long way to getting the charge dropped.
Careless is a tougher charge for the prosecution to prove, so it might be in your best interst to fight the careless charge and not take a plea deal.
Hey Guys, Here's an update, I went and got my disclosure today. File is too big, so here is the link. http://imgur.com/vwsuZeE I also have a dash cam recording here, Incident happens at 1:26 : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ht8ybQA ... e=youtu.be Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Hey Guys,
Here's an update, I went and got my disclosure today. File is too big, so here is the link. http://imgur.com/vwsuZeE
The video looks like you had enough time to stop. Regardless, you can make the case that you were trying to avoid the collision which gives validity for you actions, but that will be for the judge to make an opinion of that. Careless driving is an ambiguous offense and is one of the more difficult charges to prove. From what I see, what you did wasn't careless but the case could be made that you could've slowed down. I would take it to trial, talk to the prosecutor and showing them the video, and if they don't lessen the charge or withdraw it, take it to the trial and see what the JP says.
The video looks like you had enough time to stop.
Regardless, you can make the case that you were trying to avoid the collision which gives validity for you actions, but that will be for the judge to make an opinion of that. Careless driving is an ambiguous offense and is one of the more difficult charges to prove. From what I see, what you did wasn't careless but the case could be made that you could've slowed down.
I would take it to trial, talk to the prosecutor and showing them the video, and if they don't lessen the charge or withdraw it, take it to the trial and see what the JP says.
It's hard to tell whether you were speeding or not, but you can see you slow down a little when the van pulls out in front of you. So my opinion is that how were driving was NOT careless. The van pulled out and you had to change lanes to avoid a collission. As long as you checked the lane was clear to your left, then you do not need to signal. So you could argue that although driving was not maybe the best, it certainly was not careless. Officers says he is worried about pedestrians and other vehicles in area, but video does not show any pedestrians that I saw, and very few vehicles. Just my opinion but this would be a good charge to challenge in court. They may offer a reduced plea to a lesser offence, but this one is probably beatable. If you win, then great no charges at all, however if you lose then careless charge is serious and the same as having a DUI on your record for insurance purposes.
It's hard to tell whether you were speeding or not, but you can see you slow down a little when the van pulls out in front of you.
So my opinion is that how were driving was NOT careless. The van pulled out and you had to change lanes to avoid a collission.
As long as you checked the lane was clear to your left, then you do not need to signal.
So you could argue that although driving was not maybe the best, it certainly was not careless.
Officers says he is worried about pedestrians and other vehicles in area, but video does not show any pedestrians that I saw, and very few vehicles.
Just my opinion but this would be a good charge to challenge in court. They may offer a reduced plea to a lesser offence, but this one is probably beatable. If you win, then great no charges at all, however if you lose then careless charge is serious and the same as having a DUI on your record for insurance purposes.
I wouldn't use the video since it clearly shows you speeding. You certainly were not doing 70km/h because if you time 1 second of footage (just before the incident), you'll notice you easily pass 3 dashed white lane lines. Each dashed white line is 3m with a 6m gap to the next. That's a total of 27m (9m/line x 3lines), which works out to about 97km/hr----that's well over the speed limit of 60km. In my view, it appears that you accelerate as you approach the intersection----a reasonable person in a similar situation would do the opposite. Then, you make the lane change quite abruptly because you didn't take steps beforehand to anticipate changes in the road and factor in the actions of other drivers. A prudent person in that situation would slow down as they approach the intersection, especially when they know they are already driving faster than the speed limit (so as to affect the timing judgement of other drivers trying to enter the same road as you). That meets the definition of careless driving----"without reasonable consideration for other persons using the highway". But then, to add even further insult, you change lanes and then re-enter the right lane in front of the other driver very quickly. I would suspect you either didn't use your signal or did the maneuver so fast that the other driver wouldn't have been able to see the signal (if you did put it on). In other words, a lane change not in safety. I therefore wouldn't use the video since it won't help your case. It creates a good visual of your bad driving. Instead, if you proceed to trial, simply challenge the officer's observations----that way, its just your word against his. Given that it was night, no accident occurred, and they likely won't have the other driver as a witness---you'll have a much better chance of winning.
I wouldn't use the video since it clearly shows you speeding. You certainly were not doing 70km/h because if you time 1 second of footage (just before the incident), you'll notice you easily pass 3 dashed white lane lines. Each dashed white line is 3m with a 6m gap to the next. That's a total of 27m (9m/line x 3lines), which works out to about 97km/hr----that's well over the speed limit of 60km.
In my view, it appears that you accelerate as you approach the intersection----a reasonable person in a similar situation would do the opposite. Then, you make the lane change quite abruptly because you didn't take steps beforehand to anticipate changes in the road and factor in the actions of other drivers. A prudent person in that situation would slow down as they approach the intersection, especially when they know they are already driving faster than the speed limit (so as to affect the timing judgement of other drivers trying to enter the same road as you). That meets the definition of careless driving----"without reasonable consideration for other persons using the highway".
But then, to add even further insult, you change lanes and then re-enter the right lane in front of the other driver very quickly. I would suspect you either didn't use your signal or did the maneuver so fast that the other driver wouldn't have been able to see the signal (if you did put it on). In other words, a lane change not in safety.
I therefore wouldn't use the video since it won't help your case. It creates a good visual of your bad driving. Instead, if you proceed to trial, simply challenge the officer's observations----that way, its just your word against his. Given that it was night, no accident occurred, and they likely won't have the other driver as a witness---you'll have a much better chance of winning.
Being able to stop but choosing to change lanes instead does not equal careless. If a vehicle was cut off, then where was that vehicle? Even passing the other vehicle that pulled out, it was still not going very fast. Also the charge is not speeding though, it is careless. Speeding does not equal careless. Can a charge of speeding be issued even if found not guilty of careless? I think this is called something like an incuded offence, but not exactly sure how that works.
Being able to stop but choosing to change lanes instead does not equal careless. If a vehicle was cut off, then where was that vehicle? Even passing the other vehicle that pulled out, it was still not going very fast.
Also the charge is not speeding though, it is careless. Speeding does not equal careless.
Can a charge of speeding be issued even if found not guilty of careless? I think this is called something like an incuded offence, but not exactly sure how that works.
At the beginning of the video, you appear to blow through a clearly posted stop sign when you turn right. As pointed out, the video does appear to show you also driving faster than the posted speed limit, and then swerving around the vehicle that pulled out (apparently not properly stopping at the intersection). The officer notes the posted speed limit as 60 km/h, as @highwaystar estimated your speed at approximately 97 km/h you would appear to have been travelling at a relatively high rate of speed over the posted speed limit. In the disclosure notes the officer notes the high rate of speed and apparently two lane changes without use of signals that may have effected other vehicles on the roadway. Disclosure notes your statement that you were aware of driving over the posted speed limit. Section 130 of the HTA (Careless Driving) is as follows: "Careless driving 130. Every person is guilty of the offence of driving carelessly who drives a vehicle or street car on a highway without due care and attention or without reasonable consideration for other persons using the highway and on conviction is liable to a fine of not less than $400 and not more than $2,000 or to imprisonment for a term of not more than six months, or to both, and in addition his or her licence or permit may be suspended for a period of not more than two years. 2009, c. 5, s. 41." As pointed out by other posters, the word here is both brief and generic. The court will have do decide given the rate of speed and driving behaviour....did you drive 'without due care and attention or without reasonable consideration for other persons using the highway'? Careless Driving offences are one of the most serious offences that can be issued under the HTA (general information can be found here). Generally for serious offences such as these, a defendant would be well served to seek out legal representation to prepare and argue their defence at court. If your matter will be a trial issue, there is a distinct difference between being innocent of an offence and being found not guilty at trial.
At the beginning of the video, you appear to blow through a clearly posted stop sign when you turn right. As pointed out, the video does appear to show you also driving faster than the posted speed limit, and then swerving around the vehicle that pulled out (apparently not properly stopping at the intersection). The officer notes the posted speed limit as 60 km/h, as @highwaystar estimated your speed at approximately 97 km/h you would appear to have been travelling at a relatively high rate of speed over the posted speed limit. In the disclosure notes the officer notes the high rate of speed and apparently two lane changes without use of signals that may have effected other vehicles on the roadway. Disclosure notes your statement that you were aware of driving over the posted speed limit.
130. Every person is guilty of the offence of driving carelessly who drives a vehicle or street car on a highway without due care and attention or without reasonable consideration for other persons using the highway and on conviction is liable to a fine of not less than $400 and not more than $2,000 or to imprisonment for a term of not more than six months, or to both, and in addition his or her licence or permit may be suspended for a period of not more than two years. 2009, c. 5, s. 41."
As pointed out by other posters, the word here is both brief and generic. The court will have do decide given the rate of speed and driving behaviour....did you drive 'without due care and attention or without reasonable consideration for other persons using the highway'?
Careless Driving offences are one of the most serious offences that can be issued under the HTA (general information can be found here).
Generally for serious offences such as these, a defendant would be well served to seek out legal representation to prepare and argue their defence at court. If your matter will be a trial issue, there is a distinct difference between being innocent of an offence and being found not guilty at trial.
The content of this post is not legal advice. Legal advice can only be provided after a licenced paralegal has been retained, spoken with you directly, and reviewed the documents related to your case.
I found this site by chance and have found it informative. Many posts have tempted me to post even though I'm not an expert in any way. However, this one finally has me posting to, in the friendliest of terms, say that I would burn that video quickly. It very much appears that you blow the stop sign and appears you drive a little too quickly. From a layperson's point of view (mine), it doesn't look good and I'd chuck it and immediately. At the very least, edit out your time before and after that stop sign.
I found this site by chance and have found it informative. Many posts have tempted me to post even though I'm not an expert in any way. However, this one finally has me posting to, in the friendliest of terms, say that I would burn that video quickly. It very much appears that you blow the stop sign and appears you drive a little too quickly. From a layperson's point of view (mine), it doesn't look good and I'd chuck it and immediately. At the very least, edit out your time before and after that stop sign.
As OTD Legal noted, in the disclosure document, the police officer said: "I asked the driver how fast he had been travelling and he said between 80-90 km/hr in a posted 60 km/hr zone. I asked why he was driving in a reckles[s] fashion and he said they were having a little party and he needed to get some stuff from the store. I asked at the jeopardy of everyone else on the highway? the driver just looked at me sheepishly and it was agreed he was driving poorly" Did this actually happen? While you can try to move to have your conversation with the officer not entered as evidence, it will be difficult to do so; and this officer's notes looks particularly bad for your case. And I also don't think the video particularly helps your case either. However, careless driving is a subjective charge as to what constitutes "careless" and the courts have held that the standards for drivers isn't perfection. It will take some convincing to argue against this charge. I would try to plea bargain with the prosecutor or prepare yourself well for the date of your trial - maybe talk to a paralegal since careless driving is pretty serious.
As OTD Legal noted, in the disclosure document, the police officer said:
"I asked the driver how fast he had been travelling and he said between 80-90 km/hr in a posted 60 km/hr zone. I asked why he was driving in a reckles[s] fashion and he said they were having a little party and he needed to get some stuff from the store. I asked at the jeopardy of everyone else on the highway? the driver just looked at me sheepishly and it was agreed he was driving poorly"
Did this actually happen?
While you can try to move to have your conversation with the officer not entered as evidence, it will be difficult to do so; and this officer's notes looks particularly bad for your case.
And I also don't think the video particularly helps your case either.
However, careless driving is a subjective charge as to what constitutes "careless" and the courts have held that the standards for drivers isn't perfection. It will take some convincing to argue against this charge. I would try to plea bargain with the prosecutor or prepare yourself well for the date of your trial - maybe talk to a paralegal since careless driving is pretty serious.
Some of us think your video does show careless and others of us don't. Given the seriousness of a careless charge, a plea might be the better option to at least consider.
Some of us think your video does show careless and others of us don't. Given the seriousness of a careless charge, a plea might be the better option to at least consider.
So I never took down the video, Unsure of why it was removed. Anyways, due to the severity of the charge, I think I will just seek a plea deal out of it. I was never willing to fight this one on my own (was going to hire a lawyer), just wanted opinions on whether I should accept a plea bargain (something I could do on my own), or hire a lawyer to fight it (if it showed that it was a great chance it could be beaten).
So I never took down the video, Unsure of why it was removed. Anyways, due to the severity of the charge, I think I will just seek a plea deal out of it. I was never willing to fight this one on my own (was going to hire a lawyer), just wanted opinions on whether I should accept a plea bargain (something I could do on my own), or hire a lawyer to fight it (if it showed that it was a great chance it could be beaten).
You don't need to hire a lawyer for a case of this nature and get into high hourly billing rates. Virtually all Ontario paralegals handle cases of this nature for a flat-rate cost. There can be an opportunity cost to proceeding to self-represent at court. On the positive side, you save some legal fees. On the negative side, you don't know what you're doing, relevant case law, or court process and can end up with a comparatively poorer outcome. The ultimate goal is to protect your financial and licencing interests as much as possible. The best avenue to that end is to have the charge withdrawn or dismissed, and a licenced paralegal will give you the best shot at that. If the charge can't be withdrawn before trial, a good paralegal will do two things. Firstly, negotiate the best possible potential resolution with direct experience with the given court, prosecutor, and officer. Secondly, review that offer with you within the context of the legal merits of the Prosecutor's case. It is an unfortunately common experience to see self-represented defendants at court either accepting poor resolution offers or proceeding to trial and being convicted due to a poorly run defence.
UnluckyDuck wrote:
So I never took down the video, Unsure of why it was removed. Anyways, due to the severity of the charge, I think I will just seek a plea deal out of it. I was never willing to fight this one on my own (was going to hire a lawyer), just wanted opinions on whether I should accept a plea bargain (something I could do on my own), or hire a lawyer to fight it (if it showed that it was a great chance it could be beaten).
You don't need to hire a lawyer for a case of this nature and get into high hourly billing rates. Virtually all Ontario paralegals handle cases of this nature for a flat-rate cost. There can be an opportunity cost to proceeding to self-represent at court. On the positive side, you save some legal fees. On the negative side, you don't know what you're doing, relevant case law, or court process and can end up with a comparatively poorer outcome. The ultimate goal is to protect your financial and licencing interests as much as possible. The best avenue to that end is to have the charge withdrawn or dismissed, and a licenced paralegal will give you the best shot at that. If the charge can't be withdrawn before trial, a good paralegal will do two things. Firstly, negotiate the best possible potential resolution with direct experience with the given court, prosecutor, and officer. Secondly, review that offer with you within the context of the legal merits of the Prosecutor's case.
It is an unfortunately common experience to see self-represented defendants at court either accepting poor resolution offers or proceeding to trial and being convicted due to a poorly run defence.
The content of this post is not legal advice. Legal advice can only be provided after a licenced paralegal has been retained, spoken with you directly, and reviewed the documents related to your case.
Ok guys, Update here. Had my trial yesterday. Spoke with the prosecutor before hand, I told her I was ready to proceed, and she said she was as well, and didn't want to offer me a deal. Officer was in attendence. There were 10 careless charges on the docket, most of them plead guilty to either "Unsafe Lane Change" or "Improper Left/Right Turn." Court had a break, where the prosecutor offered me a deal for "Unsafe Lane Change" which I responded "No Thank You, I would like to proceed at trial." At the end of the break, prosecutor spoke with me and the officer and said "Ok, Final offer, I'll amend the charge to 'Improper Use of Turn Signal' at a $85 fine and 0 points". I gladly took that deal, paid the fine ($110 after fees) and left. I was quoted by 3 different paralegals all charging about $600 and saying that they will guarentee a reduced sentence, where I went in on my own and got an amazing deal. Just goes to show, don't jump the gun and hire a paralegal asap.
Ok guys, Update here.
Had my trial yesterday. Spoke with the prosecutor before hand, I told her I was ready to proceed, and she said she was as well, and didn't want to offer me a deal. Officer was in attendence. There were 10 careless charges on the docket, most of them plead guilty to either "Unsafe Lane Change" or "Improper Left/Right Turn." Court had a break, where the prosecutor offered me a deal for "Unsafe Lane Change" which I responded "No Thank You, I would like to proceed at trial." At the end of the break, prosecutor spoke with me and the officer and said "Ok, Final offer, I'll amend the charge to 'Improper Use of Turn Signal' at a $85 fine and 0 points". I gladly took that deal, paid the fine ($110 after fees) and left. I was quoted by 3 different paralegals all charging about $600 and saying that they will guarentee a reduced sentence, where I went in on my own and got an amazing deal. Just goes to show, don't jump the gun and hire a paralegal asap.
^^^ this You don't do brain surgery on your friends and family NOR yourself, you get a trained surgeon to do it for you.
OTD Legal wrote:
It is an unfortunately common experience to see self-represented defendants at court either accepting poor resolution offers or proceeding to trial and being convicted due to a poorly run defence.
^^^ this
You don't do brain surgery on your friends and family NOR yourself, you get a trained surgeon to do it for you.
--------------------------------------------------------------
* NO you cant touch your phone
* Speeding is speeding
* Challenge every ticket
* Impaired driving, you should be locked up UNDER the jail
NICE ! But it could have gone either way though nes pas ?
UnluckyDuck wrote:
Ok guys, Update here.
Had my trial yesterday. Spoke with the prosecutor before hand, I told her I was ready to proceed, and she said she was as well, and didn't want to offer me a deal. Officer was in attendence. There were 10 careless charges on the docket, most of them plead guilty to either "Unsafe Lane Change" or "Improper Left/Right Turn." Court had a break, where the prosecutor offered me a deal for "Unsafe Lane Change" which I responded "No Thank You, I would like to proceed at trial." At the end of the break, prosecutor spoke with me and the officer and said "Ok, Final offer, I'll amend the charge to 'Improper Use of Turn Signal' at a $85 fine and 0 points". I gladly took that deal, paid the fine ($110 after fees) and left. I was quoted by 3 different paralegals all charging about $600 and saying that they will guarentee a reduced sentence, where I went in on my own and got an amazing deal. Just goes to show, don't jump the gun and hire a paralegal asap.
NICE !
But it could have gone either way though nes pas ?
--------------------------------------------------------------
* NO you cant touch your phone
* Speeding is speeding
* Challenge every ticket
* Impaired driving, you should be locked up UNDER the jail
Sometimes you win Sometimes you loose Sometimes you draw But the odds are against you the "house" always wins
Sometimes you win
Sometimes you loose
Sometimes you draw
But the odds are against you the "house" always wins
--------------------------------------------------------------
* NO you cant touch your phone
* Speeding is speeding
* Challenge every ticket
* Impaired driving, you should be locked up UNDER the jail
We all know that numerous police agencies around Ontario (and world for that matter) set up speed traps in inconspicuous locations to catch motorists who are speeding.
If you know of any speed traps that are in regular use please post them here for all to know and avoid speeding fines.
Format: Town, Location, Direction, known days of operation (if known).
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