I had my trial today and need some help with next steps please. This is in Toronto at Markham East. I also asked for help at this other site, but figured I may get better help here - http://forums.redflagdeals.com/traffic- ... e-1439884/ Here is the background info and need help with next steps please: I got 2 tickets on Jan 23rd, 2013 One was for speeding - 55km'hr in a 40km/hr zone. The fine is higher as its a community safety zone. The officer said that I was actually at 56km/hr and reduced it so that I don't get any demerit points. He also gave me a second ticket for not updating my address on the vehicle registration. For this one he said that I should fight it and take an updated copy and the charge may get dropped. For the second ticket, we moved almost 2 years ago. We used the integrated address change online and my DL, OHIP, etc were all updated. Not sure why the vehicle registration didn't get done. Got it done next day. I have NO prior tickets. What I did since I got the tickets on Jan 23rd, 2013: I requested for disclosure on July 11th, 2013 Requested for disclosure on October 15th agin Did not get any responses Trial date was set for Jan 22nd, 2013 I submitted the form 4F doe an 11B and for Section 7 as per djino's instructions What happened today at Trial (Jan 22nd, 2013) Got there and prosecutor called me to the front, asking me whether I wanted to plead guilty. Told her that I had submitted 2 request for diclosures, 4f for for Section 7 and 4F for 11B She said that the disclosure requests were not valid as there was no tel # And that the 11b needs the case laws attached and proper form. I had used the one from Djino's thread and they said that it not proper! :( Cop came over and spoke to me. Asked me what I wanted to do. Told him I wanted to go ahead. He spoke to prosecutor and said we will adjourn to April 28th They then gave me the diclosure. I have scanned and posted below to see if anyone can help decipher and let me know if I need to ask for more info. The cop then came over and whispered to me, that if I file a "proper" 11B, the case will get dismissed since it will have now been 15 months since the offence Was called up to docket. Prosecutor told Justice that they have just given me disclosure. Justice went on a rant that why did I wait so long for disclosure. I waited for him to finish and politely told him that I had asked for it twice with no responses and that I didn't know I need to have the phone # on it. Agreed to new trial date and I left. Questions: Where is the "proper" Request for disclosure form? Does it have to have phone #? Based on the scans of the disclosure below, what else can I ask for now? Typed notes, radar manual, calibration, tests, etc? Where is the proper 11B form and all the case laws that go with it. The one on that long thread is not being accepted. Help would greatly appreciated. (Note - Last page of scan had something blacked out by the cop). Thanks.
I had my trial today and need some help with next steps please. This is in Toronto at Markham East.
Here is the background info and need help with next steps please:
I got 2 tickets on Jan 23rd, 2013
One was for speeding - 55km'hr in a 40km/hr zone. The fine is higher as its a community safety zone. The officer said that I was actually at 56km/hr and reduced it so that I don't get any demerit points.
He also gave me a second ticket for not updating my address on the vehicle registration. For this one he said that I should fight it and take an updated copy and the charge may get dropped.
For the second ticket, we moved almost 2 years ago. We used the integrated address change online and my DL, OHIP, etc were all updated. Not sure why the vehicle registration didn't get done. Got it done next day.
I have NO prior tickets.
What I did since I got the tickets on Jan 23rd, 2013:
I requested for disclosure on July 11th, 2013
Requested for disclosure on October 15th agin
Did not get any responses
Trial date was set for Jan 22nd, 2013
I submitted the form 4F doe an 11B and for Section 7 as per djino's instructions
What happened today at Trial (Jan 22nd, 2013)
Got there and prosecutor called me to the front, asking me whether I wanted to plead guilty. Told her that I had submitted 2 request for diclosures, 4f for for Section 7 and 4F for 11B
She said that the disclosure requests were not valid as there was no tel #
And that the 11b needs the case laws attached and proper form. I had used the one from Djino's thread and they said that it not proper!
Cop came over and spoke to me. Asked me what I wanted to do. Told him I wanted to go ahead.
He spoke to prosecutor and said we will adjourn to April 28th
They then gave me the diclosure. I have scanned and posted below to see if anyone can help decipher and let me know if I need to ask for more info.
The cop then came over and whispered to me, that if I file a "proper" 11B, the case will get dismissed since it will have now been 15 months since the offence
Was called up to docket. Prosecutor told Justice that they have just given me disclosure. Justice went on a rant that why did I wait so long for disclosure. I waited for him to finish and politely told him that I had asked for it twice with no responses and that I didn't know I need to have the phone # on it. Agreed to new trial date and I left.
Questions:
Where is the "proper" Request for disclosure form?
Does it have to have phone #?
Based on the scans of the disclosure below, what else can I ask for now? Typed notes, radar manual, calibration, tests, etc?
Where is the proper 11B form and all the case laws that go with it. The one on that long thread is not being accepted.
Help would greatly appreciated. (Note - Last page of scan had something blacked out by the cop).
You do not need a phone number. If they say you need a phone number, tell them you don't have one. You don't have a number, but you have a mailbox. Your license doesn't have your phone number, your ticket was most likely responded to by mail, and your Notice of Trial was sent by mail. You have gone through the whole trial process without a single phone call and the primary form of communication has been mail, but the prosecutor can't send you either (a) full disclosure or; (b) a letter notifying you your disclosure is at least ready? Do they plan on sending your disclosure through the headset? Mail is a perfectly suitable form of communication that doesn't rely on he said/she said after the fact. What happens when they say they called and you say they didn't? What happens if you're not home and you don't have an answering machine? Call display? It's just typical prosecutor nonsense. You don't want to lose your option at a successful 11B because the prosecutor says he/she had no way to contact you. Be prepared to call them out. If the request is sent close to your trial date, the prosecutor could argue there wasn't enough time to contact you by mail. Fair enough, but they had 6 months to respond to your request and ignored it not once, but twice. A letter doesn't take 6 months to be delivered. As for "proper" disclosure, I don't know if there is even such a thing. You can request disclosure however you want as long as it's clear what you're requesting, all the relevant information regarding your charge is included, and they have a way to contact you to either send your disclosure or notify you it's ready. There's no official form. Good luck.
You do not need a phone number. If they say you need a phone number, tell them you don't have one. You don't have a number, but you have a mailbox. Your license doesn't have your phone number, your ticket was most likely responded to by mail, and your Notice of Trial was sent by mail. You have gone through the whole trial process without a single phone call and the primary form of communication has been mail, but the prosecutor can't send you either (a) full disclosure or; (b) a letter notifying you your disclosure is at least ready? Do they plan on sending your disclosure through the headset? Mail is a perfectly suitable form of communication that doesn't rely on he said/she said after the fact. What happens when they say they called and you say they didn't? What happens if you're not home and you don't have an answering machine? Call display? It's just typical prosecutor nonsense. You don't want to lose your option at a successful 11B because the prosecutor says he/she had no way to contact you. Be prepared to call them out.
If the request is sent close to your trial date, the prosecutor could argue there wasn't enough time to contact you by mail. Fair enough, but they had 6 months to respond to your request and ignored it not once, but twice. A letter doesn't take 6 months to be delivered.
As for "proper" disclosure, I don't know if there is even such a thing. You can request disclosure however you want as long as it's clear what you're requesting, all the relevant information regarding your charge is included, and they have a way to contact you to either send your disclosure or notify you it's ready. There's no official form.
I feel so duped and cheated by the prosecutor! :( Now, nothing I can do except wait for my next date. I guess based on your response, there is no need for further disclosure request. As for the 11B, since it will more than 15 months since my offence, will I be ok? I assume, the best way to file is in person, 6 copies and get all stamped?
I feel so duped and cheated by the prosecutor!
Now, nothing I can do except wait for my next date. I guess based on your response, there is no need for further disclosure request.
As for the 11B, since it will more than 15 months since my offence, will I be ok?
I assume, the best way to file is in person, 6 copies and get all stamped?
Unfortunately, too many folks don't truly understand the law and procedures surrounding an 11B application. Don't fool yourself into thinking that the overall time is all that matters-----the court will factor A LOT of other criteria to determine what is actually an reasonable delay. For instance, you won't be able to argue that you were 'ready' for trial if you hadn't even received disclosure yet. That will certainly be one of the hurdles you'll have to overcome! How is the delay unreasonable, if you weren't even ready to proceed at trial? As such, don't be surprised if a lot of the 'delay' is attributed to you. The application could go either way!!! So, make sure you are well prepared with case law and are current in the law (i.e. several decisions have been decided since City of Toronto v. Andrade so that decision is definitely not your end-all!!!!) ). Regardless, best of luck with your case.
Unfortunately, too many folks don't truly understand the law and procedures surrounding an 11B application. Don't fool yourself into thinking that the overall time is all that matters-----the court will factor A LOT of other criteria to determine what is actually an reasonable delay. For instance, you won't be able to argue that you were 'ready' for trial if you hadn't even received disclosure yet. That will certainly be one of the hurdles you'll have to overcome! How is the delay unreasonable, if you weren't even ready to proceed at trial? As such, don't be surprised if a lot of the 'delay' is attributed to you. The application could go either way!!!
So, make sure you are well prepared with case law and are current in the law (i.e. several decisions have been decided since City of Toronto v. Andrade so that decision is definitely not your end-all!!!!) ). Regardless, best of luck with your case.
Thanks. Am planning to send out my request for disclosure now. Should I include a phone # or not? They gave me hell for not having it there the last time.
Thanks.
Am planning to send out my request for disclosure now. Should I include a phone # or not? They gave me hell for not having it there the last time.
The crown can make a big stink about this if you submit a transcript from your last appearance. As bend suggested, if you don't have a phone number, then you have no choice about it's future inclusion. On the other hand if you do have a #, as per the JP's instructions... you're compelled to include one at this stage of your disclosure requests. From your original post it appears you may have inadvertently told the courts you have one? If you have a # and choose not to include it, you'll have to be prepared to argue why at your next trial.
cessnabmw wrote:
Thanks.
Am planning to send out my request for disclosure now. Should I include a phone # or not? They gave me hell for not having it there the last time.
The crown can make a big stink about this if you submit a transcript from your last appearance. As bend suggested, if you don't have a phone number, then you have no choice about it's future inclusion. On the other hand if you do have a #, as per the JP's instructions... you're compelled to include one at this stage of your disclosure requests. From your original post it appears you may have inadvertently told the courts you have one? If you have a # and choose not to include it, you'll have to be prepared to argue why at your next trial.
The crown can make a big stink about this if you submit a transcript from your last appearance. As bend suggested, if you don't have a phone number, then you have no choice about it's future inclusion. On the other hand if you do have a #, as per the JP's instructions... you're compelled to include one at this stage of your disclosure requests. From your original post it appears you may have inadvertently told the courts you have one? If you have a # and choose not to include it, you'll have to be prepared to argue why at your next trial. You have made a good point. I inadvertently said I had one as I didn't dispute it. Will send in my disclosure request with phone #. Then once I get it, will start the submission of the 11B as well :(
iFly55 wrote:
cessnabmw wrote:
Thanks.
Am planning to send out my request for disclosure now. Should I include a phone # or not? They gave me hell for not having it there the last time.
The crown can make a big stink about this if you submit a transcript from your last appearance. As bend suggested, if you don't have a phone number, then you have no choice about it's future inclusion. On the other hand if you do have a #, as per the JP's instructions... you're compelled to include one at this stage of your disclosure requests. From your original post it appears you may have inadvertently told the courts you have one? If you have a # and choose not to include it, you'll have to be prepared to argue why at your next trial.
You have made a good point. I inadvertently said I had one as I didn't dispute it. Will send in my disclosure request with phone #.
Then once I get it, will start the submission of the 11B as well
Just picked up the disclosure. I had asked for typed up notes, an explanation of what was blanked and copies of the officers ticket. They gave me the radar manual only. I didn't even ask for that! Now what? File the 11B now? Ask for another disclosure?
Just picked up the disclosure. I had asked for typed up notes, an explanation of what was blanked and copies of the officers ticket.
They gave me the radar manual only. I didn't even ask for that!
Now what? File the 11B now? Ask for another disclosure?
Your thread does not make sense.....your very first post has the notes of the officer from the back of the ticket....and your last post says you just picked up disclosure, the posts are a few months apart. The notes are very easy to decipher....top one is the back of one of your tickets and refers you to the middle ticket. The middle ticket refers your to a third ticket (which is not yours) however the officer references the location of the stop and lidar unit used, rather than duplicating that on each ticket, hence the blackout area is someone else. Middle one is clear....type of vehicle, how you were identified and address on licence, insurance compared to ownership, that ticket was lowered by 1km
Your thread does not make sense.....your very first post has the notes of the officer from the back of the ticket....and your last post says you just picked up disclosure, the posts are a few months apart.
The notes are very easy to decipher....top one is the back of one of your tickets and refers you to the middle ticket. The middle ticket refers your to a third ticket (which is not yours) however the officer references the location of the stop and lidar unit used, rather than duplicating that on each ticket, hence the blackout area is someone else.
Middle one is clear....type of vehicle, how you were identified and address on licence, insurance compared to ownership, that ticket was lowered by 1km
Above is merely a suggestion/thought and in no way constitutes legal advice or views of my employer. www.OHTA.ca
I got my first disclosure at my trial date. I then sent another request and picked the second disclosure. What should I do now? File for an 11B?
hwybear wrote:
Your thread does not make sense.....your very first post has the notes of the officer from the back of the ticket....and your last post says you just picked up disclosure, the posts are a few months apart.
The notes are very easy to decipher....top one is the back of one of your tickets and refers you to the middle ticket. The middle ticket refers your to a third ticket (which is not yours) however the officer references the location of the stop and lidar unit used, rather than duplicating that on each ticket, hence the blackout area is someone else.
Middle one is clear....type of vehicle, how you were identified and address on licence, insurance compared to ownership, that ticket was lowered by 1km
I got my first disclosure at my trial date. I then sent another request and picked the second disclosure.
An update: I filed my 11B at the end of March and had my court date yesterday. What a mess :( Was not provided any offer by the prosecutor. Said she had received the 11B and that we can go to trial for it. My first court date 12 months from the offence and the second one was 15 months. They started reading the charges and asked if I was pleading guilty or not and I said not guilty - that why it all went downhill. JP asked if I knew what an 11B was and why I was pleading if I was making a case for my 11B. Basically said I had no clue what I was doing. I then recalled that I should not have pleaded to anything and asked for the proceeding to be stayed on the grounds of the 11B. But it was too late. He said that he is adjourning my case to June 23rd and I can then make my case for the 11B. I guess he has given me sometime to prep. Spoke to the cop after and he said that when I come back, if the prosecutors offers, I can abandon my 11B, and make a deal. Or else go ahead with the 11B and if i lose would be charged with both the tickets and I think demerit point because they will up the speeding ticket to the actual. What do I do? How do I prep to present my case for the 11B? Thanks!
An update:
I filed my 11B at the end of March and had my court date yesterday.
What a mess
Was not provided any offer by the prosecutor. Said she had received the 11B and that we can go to trial for it. My first court date 12 months from the offence and the second one was 15 months.
They started reading the charges and asked if I was pleading guilty or not and I said not guilty - that why it all went downhill. JP asked if I knew what an 11B was and why I was pleading if I was making a case for my 11B. Basically said I had no clue what I was doing. I then recalled that I should not have pleaded to anything and asked for the proceeding to be stayed on the grounds of the 11B. But it was too late. He said that he is adjourning my case to June 23rd and I can then make my case for the 11B.
I guess he has given me sometime to prep. Spoke to the cop after and he said that when I come back, if the prosecutors offers, I can abandon my 11B, and make a deal. Or else go ahead with the 11B and if i lose would be charged with both the tickets and I think demerit point because they will up the speeding ticket to the actual.
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