Street racing?

hwybear wrote:

90 day ADLS and 12 hour suspension are actually both Provincially imposed suspensions, HTA 48. FYI

I have no further arguement but this post is here so that I get the last word. Hummmph.

Reflections wrote:

hwybear wrote:

90 day ADLS and 12 hour suspension are actually both Provincially imposed suspensions, HTA 48. FYI

I have no further arguement but this post is here so that I get the last word.

Oh come on. We cannot argue with the mighty Bear... He's a cop, AND he's a good guy.

racer wrote:

Reflections wrote:

hwybear wrote:

90 day ADLS and 12 hour suspension are actually both Provincially imposed suspensions, HTA 48. FYI

I have no further arguement but this post is here so that I get the last word.

Oh come on. We cannot argue with the mighty Bear... He's a cop, AND he's a good guy.

He know's I am arguing against the law itself not him, this post added incase I'm ever down his way.

Reflections wrote:

He know's I am arguing against the law itself not him, this post added incase I'm ever down his way.

Exactly!....now where's my boston cream donut

hwybear wrote:

Reflections wrote:

He know's I am arguing against the law itself not him, this post added incase I'm ever down his way.

Exactly!....now where's my boston cream donut

OK, the cop made the first donut joke, "GAME ON"

hwybear wrote:

No difference between the 7 day suspension and the

- 90 day ADLS suspension

OR in criminal matters where conditions are imposed on people who are not yet convicted and must abide by until trial

The license suspension is ok it's the impounding property that is the charter issue.

oh ok...never thought of that as with a 90day ADLS...vehicle is only impounded until a licenced driver can pick it up

casper wrote:

Here is a good article by Jim Kenzie..

http://wheels.ca/Columnists/article/248098

Followup:

Julian Fantino's reply:

http://wheels.ca/article/250631

Public Opinions:

http://www.wheels.ca/article/254338

Another good article I found.

"When Ontario passed new street racing laws last fall, they were hailed as the toughest in North America.

The legislation gives police the power to seize cars and licences on the spot if drivers are charged with street racing, or stunt driving.

As of May 20, 2008, police had laid 5,139 street racing or stunt driving charges since the law was enacted on Oct. 1, 2007.

But CBC News has learned that the vast majority of people charged under the new laws are never convicted of the crime.

George Papazov says he's a perfect example.

Last October, the 23-year-old got stuck in traffic on Toronto's Don Valley Parkway.

He wasn't far from his exit, so he crept slowly between the idle cars on his motorcycle. It didn't take long until he saw the flashing lights of a police cruiser.

"First thing he said is, 'Your bike is gone for a week,'" said Papazov.

The officer seized Papazov's motorcycle and licence for seven days right on the side of the road.

Papazov was charged with stunt driving and his bike was towed — at a cost of almost a $1,000.

When Papazov got his day in court, the charges didn't stand up. Papazov was found guilty of making an illegal lane change and fined $600.

OPP Const. Dave Woodford says what happens in court is not his concern. "My concern is getting those people off the road."

Simply being charged with stunt driving cost Papazov more than $2,000 in non-refundable towing and legal costs. He said he had to sell his motorcycle to pay the fees.

"Anything can be stunt driving," said Papazov. "It gives the officer the power, on the spot, to decide if you're guilty or not."

More than 5,000 drivers have been charged since the law took effect but according to statistics provided by the Ontario Ministry of the Attorney General to CBC News, the conviction rate is only about 33 per cent.

As of April 1, 1,080 street racing cases had gone to trial, with 325 convictions. According to the ministry, 526 cases were reduced to speeding, while 229 were either withdrawn, dismissed or stayed.

Most fines for those convicted ranged from $2,000 to $10,000, but some fines have been as low as $200.

Papazov says that means many drivers, like him, are paying for something for which they're never convicted.

But OPP Sgt. Cam Woolley says taking vehicles off the road is the entire point of the law.

"Ultimately, we've seen an increase in safety and really the best thing about this law is [the] immediate consequences.""

casper wrote:

OPP Const. Dave Woodford says what happens in court is not his concern. "My concern is getting those people off the road."

Statements like this should really concern the general population. Whether you have kids, employees, spouses, etc. you will probably be (or know someone who is) affected one day by some gung-ho cop, like this one, who seems to think he can just make up the law as he goes along, based solely on his own "concerns". And (of course) he won't be reprimanded for his actions. He'll still be held in high regard by his brothers in black.

casper wrote:

But OPP Sgt. Cam Woolley says taking vehicles off the road is the entire point of the law.

"Ultimately, we've seen an increase in safety and really the best thing about this law is [the] immediate consequences.""

Why not just run up and shoot the guy dead before he even says a word. That's even MORE "immediate"!!

CBC has done a 2 part series on this section of HTA and how its affecting people

First part was tonight @ 6 pm which I missed ffs

2nd part is tomorrow same time

if anyone finds this first part please post a link

I will be getting a copy of the whole thing on DVD

but I dont know when.

IMHO:After Review

This new law won't be tossed all together though as some want!

I see a minimum of 3 revisions of HTA 172 coming down the Pipe

1.Seizure of vehicle for 7 days will be toast!

2.(6)Driving a motor vehicle while the driver is not sitting in the driver's seat. In regards to driving a MC,where in The MC handbook,distributed by MTO,when approaching a bump/pothole,raise slightly off the seat(or crush your testies)

And I see the Officer not being able to direct which pound yard,said vehicle goes too!

And Maybe Hwybear can confirm this for me please

If I was charged under this section of HTA

And I was to argue/state my point on the roadside

Is it possible for me to receive a 5K fine for doing so,fact or fiction?

My 2 cents

Linkage

http://www.cbc.ca/clips/mov/cheung-race-080609.mov

BelSlySTi wrote:

And Maybe Hwybear can confirm this for me please

If I was charged under this section of HTA

And I was to argue/state my point on the roadside

Is it possible for me to receive a 5K fine for doing so,fact or fiction?

FICTION...police do not set the fine at all...issue a summons for a court date and the JP decides the fine....it is supposed to be a minimum of $2k in court

It is brothers and sisters in BLUE

And I fully support them 100%.

If you stand back at look at the stats that have been collected on a unbiased perspective there are several issues not mentioned.

- Convictions for 172 (straight foward stat)

- Reduced to speeding (in other words they pled guilty to the speed involved...so instead of a minimum $2k racing fine...it probably is around $600)

- withdrawn, dismissed or stayed (this area makes no mention as to if another offence was pled to...thus saving the driver from the minimum $2000 fine) (such as the Papazov motorcycle case above)

Also at the start of this law, we were issuing both a racing charge and a speeding charge...so usually one was dropped, the other pled...so that also taints the stats as well.

If they want to show stats....how about actual charges laid for racing or stunt driving..............then what is the number that actually walked away with absolutely nothing. If someone agrees to a plea it is to save themselves some coin or demerit points or the court is busy and trying to speed up time.

Just a sideways view on this "law". How many people have been killed or injured by street racing in the last 5 years??? I thought I saw Citynews had the number 46 death's somewhere on their website. I'm not saying there is no need for this law but I believe that "46" is a lot less then the "not wearing a seat belt" or "Drunk Driving" deaths over the same time period. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong but isn't this "Political Policing" at it's best?????

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/toronto/story/ ... alcomments

I've been reading a lot of articles and websites and the above site seems to represent the common public opinion. It's quite clear that the vast majority of opinionated people are against this law. I think it's unwise for Mr. Fantino to challenge public opinion like he does. Eventually, the police in general, will lose the respect and trust from the very public they have sworn to serve. He can boast about stats all he wants. I don't think it's gonna help him now.

I read that approximately 5 deaths per year were caused by racing (since 1999). This first year alone under this new law will see about 8,000 people charged and impounded. That's about 1600 TIMES more people negatively affected by the impoundments than by a racing death. That's a heck of a lot of people that are now yelling from the highest hill about how unfair this law is. This is how public opinion forms and laws are ultimately amended to suite their concerns.

I'm in no way trying to minimize the senseless deaths caused by idiots who have no self control behind the wheel, nor am I suggesting that a mere 1-week impoundment is any where near as traumatic as a traffic fatality. I'm merely pointing out the "public opinion" aspect of this law.

I've already seen a noticeable shift in opinions amongst family members, friends, and co-workers. Where once they truly believed (as I did... for about 8 seconds) that this law would target the "Fast & Furious" street racing problem, they now have heard enough stories and articles to see that the law has been abused by law enforcement at an unacceptable rate.

Give it another year or two and enough hard-working, otherwise completely law-abiding citizens will step out from the shadows and join the fight against this police state Julian Fantino has created. It comes as no surprise to me that most of the reporting done on this subject (that I've seen) has been negative towards the police.

FANTINO did NOT create the law, he just supports it and is vocal about the law, that is it. The politicians created, worded and passed the law.....Blame it on them! Go sit on the lawn at parliament or whatever.Target the politicians that put the "impoundment" part into law if that is the big concern.

Only ones concerned are the ones not following the rules of the road and doing extreme driving out of the norm.

2004 there was 8.7 million licenced Ontario Drivers.....add in 4 yrs and travellers...and if that number might be 9 million now is a lot of drivers and even IF 8000 people get caught....that is less than 1% of all drivers.

A far cry from the "alledged" majority that this is affecting.

And again, there is always two sides to every story....the news, they always created "their perspective" (whether it be right or wrong). Plus the news has a way to put another spin on things to boot. Which many people do not realize and take it for gospel.

hwybear wrote:

FANTINO did NOT create the law, he just supports it and is vocal about the law, that is it.

Did Fantino not help lay some of the ground work for this law?

This article is Disgusting to say the least,I have written a letter to the CRTC http://toronto.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/ ... ntoNewHome

And lucky me I have an appointment with my MPP on Thursday!

Maybe he can explain to me how this Does Not Violate The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/charter/#garantie

BelSlySTi wrote:

This article is Disgusting to say the least,I have written a letter to the CRTC http://toronto.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/ ... ntoNewHome

I read it, what is so disgusting? (coles notes please)

Simply biased reporting!

BelSlySTi wrote:

Simply biased reporting!

Don't see much biased in that. Just results from a long weekend. They maybe could have said there was approx "X" million travellers this past weekend with only "X" thousand stopped, therefore over 99 % were driving properly.

We could make a whole new thread on bias news reporting. Rarely is it neutral, it somehow makes someone look bad.

(eg. Local news about 2 wks ago, a restuarant owner on a major artery in our city is fuming and saying he is losing business b/c the road is ripped up in front of his business...blah blah blah.....yet nothing about how the municipality is widing the road as traffic volume is so high and replacing water and sewer lines (they are ancient) before they break at a bad time and have to rip up the new road)

BelSlySTi wrote:

This article is Disgusting to say the least,I have written a letter to the CRTC http://toronto.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/ ... ntoNewHome

The thing I found interesting about the article was that the general emphasis was on "speeding" infractions, but the two accidents mentioned (and pictured)

had nothing to do with speeding (or racing). I would have expected all these crazy speeders would have resulted in a couple pics of accidents caused by SPEEDING, not old age and booze.

Speed definition: to cause to move, go, or proceed

If speed was not involved how did the collisions occur?

Two stationary objects do not touch one another. So one has to have speed.

One article the vehicle came "ploughing" through the front of the store, certainly was not stationary at the curb, but moving with some speed.

I said "SpeedING", not Speed! (groan...)

HOWEVER.... thanks for pointing out just how silly the phrase "Speed Kills" is

hwybear wrote:

Speed definition: to cause to move, go, or proceed

If speed was not involved how did the collisions occur?

Two stationary objects do not touch one another. So one has to have speed.

One article the vehicle came "ploughing" through the front of the store, certainly was not stationary at the curb, but moving with some speed.

Any two objects that have mass also have gravity.....eventually they will meet.

And I do remember Mr. Fantino saying he wished he went after 30 over after the first week(?) of the law being implemented. This would be the cops being law makers and no sir I don't like it.

Bookm wrote:

HOWEVER.... thanks for pointing out just how silly the phrase "Speed Kills" is

I have agree speed does not kill, it's that sudden stop that kills.

Should change it to "Stopping Kills"

hwybear wrote:

...Should change it to "Stopping Kills"

EXACTLY! Now you understand why "pushing" the yellow light is SAFER!

The province's top cop says street racing legislation introduced last September and the re-introduction of the Ontario Provincial Police's aerial traffic enforcement program have kept more motorists alive this summer, compared to this time last year.

OPP Commissioner Julian Fantino said the number of fatalities on OPP patrolled roads have dropped by 32 per cent. That is the equivalent of 82 lives being saved.

To date, 174 people have been killed compared to 256 in 2007. Deaths where speeding is a factor are down 40.2 per cent from 102 last year to 61 this year.

"The OPP's Provincial Traffic Enforcement Program is obviously working," Fantino said

hwybear wrote:

The province's top cop says street racing legislation introduced last September and the re-introduction of the Ontario Provincial Police's aerial traffic enforcement program have kept more motorists alive this summer, compared to this time last year.

OPP Commissioner Julian Fantino said the number of fatalities on OPP patrolled roads have dropped by 32 per cent. That is the equivalent of 82 lives being saved.

To date, 174 people have been killed compared to 256 in 2007. Deaths where speeding is a factor are down 40.2 per cent from 102 last year to 61 this year.

"The OPP's Provincial Traffic Enforcement Program is obviously working," Fantino said

A few weeks ago Woolley also said traffic was down in general due Insane fuel costs,and the soggy weather,keeping the cottagers @ home.

I guess we will be seeing more of these press releases in the next few weeks

"The OPP's Provincial Traffic Enforcement Program is obviously working," Fantino said

There are way too many variables to establish one thing as the main contributer to the statistics of driving. The new probably helped tame some of the drivers but it is not the only thing. Weather and gas prices have also reduced the number of people on the roads and the speed that they are travelling at. Still, enforcement is not the only thing, contrary to Mr. Fantino's insinuation.