OHTA.ca

Traffic stop in scarborough, ontario

I was travelling east bound on ellesmere road and approached markham road attempting to make a right turn. All signal lights were red and cars traveling down markham road south were given the green arrow. I slowed down and attempted to make the right turn. I got ticketed by a cop who was parked in a gas station facing the intersection in a (no parking zone). I got pulled over and was given a $320 ticket for failing to stop at a red light. I have picked up my disclosure and got a copy of the officers notes and a dvd of his dash cam. There was a van who made the turn right before me in the video, not making the "complete" stop the officer emphasized, however i got pulled over.

Unfortunately i have always been unlucky when it comes to TPS officers. I did meet with duty counsel who told me to take a lesser charge, as i student i am really tight on my finances, but i was much worried about my current insurance rates and driver abstract and put the offence to trial. I have trial coming up in January 2014...

Any advice/help would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks,

V. Ganesh

If the lights at Markham Rd. were all red except for a green left turning indicating arrow, then you yourself can not make a red-light right turn even if you had come to a complete stop. http://goo.gl/maps/zEtzb

http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/html/statut ... uote]Green arrow

(14) Every driver approaching a traffic control signal showing one or more green arrow indications only or in combination with a circular red or circular amber indication and facing the indication may proceed only to follow the direction shown by the arrow. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 144 (14).

Red light

(18) Every driver approaching a traffic control signal showing a circular red indication and facing the indication shall stop his or her vehicle and shall not proceed until a green indication is shown. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 144 (18).

Exception – turn

(19) Despite subsection (18) and subject to subsection (14), a driver, after stopping his or her vehicle and yielding the right of way to traffic lawfully approaching so closely that to proceed would constitute an immediate hazard, may,

(a) turn to the right; or

(b) turn to the left from a one-way street into a one-way street,

without a green indication being shown. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 144 (19).[/quote]Out of curiosity was the lesser charge S.144 (12)?

Does the video show the colours of the lights at the intersection? If so, what where they? does it also show that your rims do not stop? At the time the streetview pictures were taken the white lines appear faded (http://goo.gl/maps/PLiai), can they be seen on the video? what did the officer write in his notes?

I believe the fine is $325 and not $320. Can you confirm what your ticket says?

Regardless is there is a green arrow indicating a left turn, you can make right on a red if you stop first so long as you can do so safely and there is no sign prohibiting it. SS 19 grants that exemption.

How long ago did you get the ticket?

iFly55 wrote:If the lights at Markham Rd. were all red except for a green left turning indicating arrow, then you yourself can not make a red-light right turn even if you had come to a complete stop. http://goo.gl/maps/zEtzb

Out of curiosity was the lesser charge S.144 (12)?

Does the video show the colours of the lights at the intersection? If so, what where they? does it also show that your rims do not stop? At the time the streetview pictures were taken the white lines appear faded (http://goo.gl/maps/PLiai), can they be seen on the video? what did the officer write in his notes?

I was traveling east bound on ellesmere road making a right turn onto markham road to go north. All lights were red and vehicles waiting to make a left turn from markham road south to ellesmere westbound were given the green arrow. Video shows this. I noticed this and kind of just slowed my car and rolled it a little before making the turn. The line cannot be seen in the video. The officer wrote that i slowed down but did not stop at the line.

The lesser charge was 136(1)(a) failing to stop at the line

tdottopcop wrote:I believe the fine is $325 and not $320. Can you confirm what your ticket says?

Yes the fine is $325 and the charge is for HTA: s. 144(8) Fail to stop at the red light

ynotp wrote:Regardless is there is a green arrow indicating a left turn, you can make right on a red if you stop first so long as you can do so safely and there is no sign prohibiting it. SS 19 grants that exemption.

How long ago did you get the ticket?

yes you are right regarding ss. 19. I received the ticket during February 2013

This is the view from the dash cam

ynotp wrote:Regardless is there is a green arrow indicating a left turn, you can make right on a red if you stop first so long as you can do so safely and there is no sign prohibiting it. SS 19 grants that exemption.

That's actually incorrect. Subsection 19 is still subject to subsection 14.

(19) Despite subsection (18) and subject to subsection (14), a driver, after stopping his or her vehicle and yielding the right of way to traffic lawfully approaching so closely that to proceed would constitute an immediate hazard, may...

I know the wording could be a little more clear, but if you see a green arrow you can only proceed in the direction shown.

Okay lets hope this clears this up:

Source: http://www.wheels.ca/guides/advance-gre ... rn-on-red/

Most drivers, and probably some police, seem to miss a key point concerning right turns on red.

Section 144(14) HTA states that "every driver approaching a traffic control signal showing one or more green arrows indications only, or in combination with a circular red or circular amber indication and facing the indication, may proceed only to follow the direction shown by the arrow."

When facing a red light with an advance left turn green arrow, drivers cant legally turn right on red as the green arrow would only allow a left turn, not right. Am I correct?

Stephen Parker, a licensed paralegal with Pointts, replies:

Sorry, but no, that interpretation is not correct.

An advance left-turn green arrow on the centre traffic light head means that left-turn drivers may turn, but those in the through lanes cant proceed straight through until they have a circular green light (or green forward arrow).

If youre in the curb lane waiting to turn right, and all the other signals for you are red, you can still turn right on red regardless of the advanced left-turn green arrow, which doesnt apply to your lane of travel.

Ontario Transportation Ministry spokesperson Bob Nichols adds:

Under the Highway Traffic Act, turning right on red after stopping, even when there is an advance-green left-turn arrow, is typically allowed, depending on the layout of the traffic lights. Drivers are to obey the traffic signal that applies to their lane, as set out in subsection 144(10) HTA.

At intersections, there are normally at least two sets of traffic signals: one on the far left that is often on a median facing the left turn lane(s), and the primary signal head on the far right side that applies to the other lanes.

When there is a red light and a left-turn green arrow displayed on the far left signal head, left-turn drivers may proceed to turn. At the same time, the right side signal head will display red only, and turning right on red is allowed after stopping and yielding.

In few instances, the right signal head will also display a left-turn arrow and, for this arrangement, turning right on red is not allowed.

Eric Lai adds:

An example of the latter is a road that terminates at a T-intersection with a one-way road heading to the left. Green left-turn arrows, rather than circular green lights, on both traffic light heads would indicate that all lanes must proceed left only.

Also, drivers cannot turn right on red if a sign prohibiting such movement is posted.

Note that all information above is of a general nature only and should not be taken as legal advice or opinion.

Just to be clear your car is the one just about to turn right behind a pole and your tires and stop marker being obscured by a snowbank with your brake lights on (just right of centre)? If the video clearly shows you not stopping then the evidence against you will likely lead to a conviction, if it shows you inching along you could insist that you stopped for a split-second and that the frame rate just might have missed it. If you have 11 months from offence date to trial date you might be able to apply for an 11B stay of charges.

ynotp wrote:Just to be clear your car is the one just about to turn right behind a pole and your tires and stop marker being obscured by a snowbank with your brake lights on (just right of centre)? If the video clearly shows you not stopping then the evidence against you will likely lead to a conviction, if it shows you inching along you could insist that you stopped for a split-second and that the frame rate just might have missed it. If you have 11 months from offence date to trial date you might be able to apply for an 11B stay of charges.

The offence date was february 13, 2013. I met with the prosecutor on april 11, then I asked for a trial which is set for January 22, 2014. Will i still be able to apply for the stay of charges?

I was of the same understanding as Stanton, thestar also wrote another article about advanced green - red light right-turns where a drivetest examiner failed a student for making the turn. http://www.wheels.ca/feature/turning-ri ... s-of-grey/ Although I agree we should all practice patience and yield to traffic, but if there is no oncoming traffic and the turn can be made safely... it would be nice to take it, rather than waiting for the advance green to turn yellow or disappear. I've received blaring car horns and the one finger salute from other drivers for not making the red-right turn when there was an advance green, because I believed it was against the HTA.

Did you request an early attendance meeting? In the past, defendants would file the ticket for trial and request an early attendance meeting at the same time. Now some jurisdictions give out tickets where the 'Early Resolution' is option two.

If you read Justice Libman's decision: "R. ex rel City of Toronto v. Andrade, 2011 ONCJ 470 (CanLII)": http://canlii.ca/t/fn8jv ... the 11b delay is from the date you "filed your intentions to go to trial" to your "trial date"; usually when self-representing folks file their applications they use the charge date but during the course of the pre-trial motion the dates are amended.

Corporation (City of Mississauga) v. Lam, 2012 ONCJ 734 (CanLII): http://canlii.ca/t/ftxn2

Although this decision isn't binding, this Mississauga JP considers the charge date to early-attendance meeting a "neutral" delay. Technically when you filed your ticket, you didn't ask for a trial but a resolution meeting; only at the conclusion of the meeting did you request a trial. Maybe this is open to interpretation, i'm not sure.

ynotp wrote:Okay lets hope this clears this up:

Source: http://www.wheels.ca/guides/advance-gre ... rn-on-red/

Very interesting, thanks for sharing. Wish they'd write the HTA in plain english like the article. I remember even my driving instructor back in the day telling me it was illegal to make a right turn on an advanced left.

If laws were written in plain English we wouldn't need lawyers. Now wouldn't that be something.