OHTA.ca

Hey,

I was pulled over last month turning left onto Bathurst N/B from Lakeshore E/B. I got two tickets 1) for making an improper left turn and 2) for not having a valid insurance card.

It was Saturday morning 6AM pretty pitch dark, i saw a few cars turn Left and my GPS was screaming take Left ... take Left

I saw the posted sign, but i assumed it was between a certain time. My insurance card literally expired a month before i got my ticket; the officer told me to bring the new insurance card and the crown attorney "might" drop the ticket.

What can i do? This is my very first ticket, I have a first attendance meeting with the prosecutor next week.

First ticket: Highway Traffic Act - 144 (9) - 2 demerit points + $110 fine

Second ticket: CAIA - 3 (1) - $65.00 fine

The sign didn't have any Mon-Fri timed restriction, i don't know how i can go about fighting this. If i bring my GPS or show them pictures of my GPS showing a left turn at Bathurst from Lakeshore E/B?

I read about the Metro Toronto Bylaw 32-92 Section 39 (1), where Officers give out $18.75 fines without demerit points for improper Left/Right turns, but is this true? Is this something i should ask the prosecutor?

Will this by-law infraction go toward my insurance? Does it carry any demerit points? What are the chances the crown will drop the insurance card and reduce left-turn ticket?

I also want to know if i choose to fight the ticket in trial, will the prosecutor make a similar deal at the trial if the officer shows up?

If the police officer fails to show up, does it mean both tickets are thrown out?

iFly55 wrote:The sign didn't have any Mon-Fri timed restriction, i don't know how i can go about fighting this. If i bring my GPS or show them pictures of my GPS showing a left turn at Bathurst from Lakeshore E/B?

Unfortunately, no. This will not get you out of a ticket. No matter what the GPS tells you to do, you still have to obey all signs.

iFly55 wrote:I read about the Metro Toronto Bylaw 32-92 Section 39 (1), where Officers give out $18.75 fines without demerit points for improper Left/Right turns, but is this true? Is this something i should ask the prosecutor?

That's an option, also bring your up-to-date insurance card.

iFly55 wrote:Will this by-law infraction go toward my insurance? Does it carry any demerit points?

If it is Disobey Sign under 32-92, no, and no. There are some by-laws that prohibit turns, and those DO carry demerit points. You can be specific and say that you want the municipal disobey sign. (Confusing? Municipal disobey sign doesn't carry demerit points but municipal prohibited turn does.)

iFly55 wrote:What are the chances the crown will drop the insurance card and reduce left-turn ticket?

50-50.

iFly55 wrote:I also want to know if i choose to fight the ticket in trial, will the prosecutor make a similar deal at the trial if the officer shows up?

Probably.

iFly55 wrote:If the police officer fails to show up, does it mean both tickets are thrown out?

In Toronto, yes. The courts are WAY too clogged for them to re-schedule trials for things like disobeying signs, etc.

Radar Identified,

Thank you very much for your replies! Very informative, hopefully with some luck i'll get out of this.

Radar Identified wrote:

iFly55 wrote:The sign didn't have any Mon-Fri timed restriction, i don't know how i can go about fighting this. If i bring my GPS or show them pictures of my GPS showing a left turn at Bathurst from Lakeshore E/B?

Unfortunately, no. This will not get you out of a ticket. No matter what the GPS tells you to do, you still have to obey all signs. .

Reminds of a funny thing this past summer. While driivng/exploring down a backroad (logging) in northern Ontario I was touring at about 20km/hr and crossing a swamp, I noticed a bend in road, same on GPS, GPS showed another road coming up on my left part way across the swamp.....well got to that "intersection" and NO road at all to the left.....just swamp, never has been a road there.......have to wonder if it was night and I just turned left....try explaining that one to the boss

hwybear wrote:Reminds of a funny thing this past summer. While driivng/exploring down a backroad (logging) in northern Ontario I was touring at about 20km/hr and crossing a swamp, I noticed a bend in road, same on GPS, GPS showed another road coming up on my left part way across the swamp.....well got to that "intersection" and NO road at all to the left.....just swamp, never has been a road there.......have to wonder if it was night and I just turned left....try explaining that one to the boss

That would be funny... except... on at least two occasions that have been reported by the news media (I think one was in Spain the other in Florida), people did follow the GPS right into a swamp. I guess the point is, technology is great... but don't rely on it to think for you. If it's designed by humans it can make as many mistakes as humans can... or more...

Regarding GPS's I found some suck and some are really Gooood!

For example, I had a Garmin Nuvi 265w which at the time retailed for $200. It was really bad IMO because it would not give the correct route to my house when I would be just a street away and comon sense would tell me to just go straight. Anyway the Nuvi would tell me to make rights and lefts when I shouldn't be making them.

Then fortunately, my car got broken into and they stole my Nuvi!

After that I bought a $120 TOMTOM without all the fancy features like bluetooth and sceen displays. However, this TOMTOM product is AMAZING! It has never lead me wrong, and it totally understands the correct ways to take.

I would highly look into companies like TomTom for GPS but then again it can also have flaws ofcourse. But the point I think is that some GPS companies are better than others, and you should definitely never completely try to rely on your GPS.

Yeah i'm definitely going to invest in a TomTom, i actually had one with a 3" screen. But my dad traded it for a 4" Sony one, i was so pissed when he did it. He's like bigger screen ... it's better.

So i went to talk to the prosecutor today, he spent 5 minutes explaining to me what Demerit Points are ... how when it accumulates my license gets suspended blah blah blah

He said he can reduce the 144 (9) to a 144 (12), according to the prosecutor the (12) doesn't carry any demerit points

i asked about the bylaw infraction; he said he doesn't know about them, and so he can't offer it. He was ready to drop the insurance card one as well if i took the 144 (12)

So i asked if i can get the by-law infraction at the trial, he said yes. But to bring a printed sheet saying what the by-law is, he said the other prosecutors might not know what it is either.

He then told me that there are 3 things that are going to happen at the trial:

1. Officer doesn't show up: tickets dismissed

2. Officer shows up: ask for the by-law

3: No by-law, i'll get the 144 (12)

I've got a few more questions. English isn't my first language, should i ask for an interpreter? maybe i might not get one at the trial, ask for dismissal (delays, etc)

Would having a French trial be in anyway more advantageous? Do the prosecutors know both languages? How about Toronto Police?

Are they allowed to speak in English at a French trial?

iFly55 wrote: I've got a few more questions. English isn't my first language, should i ask for an interpreter? maybe i might not get one at the trial, ask for dismissal (delays, etc)

Would having a French trial be in anyway more advantageous? Do the prosecutors know both languages? How about Toronto Police?

Are they allowed to speak in English at a French trial?

If you ask for a french interpreter it will be a trial in french as it an official language of Canada.

French trials follow the same format as English trials. The courts book all french requested trials on the same day for convenience of the JP/Crown and interpreter. Here is the difference: JP and Crown (prosecutor) will be fluent in both languages. An interpreter is brought for the officer.

iFly55 wrote:Would having a French trial be in anyway more advantageous? Do the prosecutors know both languages? How about Toronto Police?

If your first language is French, then it would be advantageous to get a trial in French. They'll just get an interpreter to translate the officers' words in to French. In addition, they'll get a fluently bilingual Prosecutor and JP, who will understand everything the officer says in English. They will conduct the trial, asking you questions, making the arraignment, etc., in French. You will then have to present everything in French. However, if your first language is not French - don't waste your time.

This is a follow up, during my first attendance meeting last year the Prosecutor did not know about the by-law infraction. I talked to someone at the city and they sent me this by e-mail

So would the new charge be Disobey Sign under By-Law 32-92 Section (40) 1 ?

Looks like it. See what the Prosecutor says at your next appearance.

I received two tickets on October 23, 2010: HTA 144 (9) Prohibited Left Turn & CAIA 3 (1) Fail to have Insurance Card

I received my notice of trial for August 18th, 2011

I requested for disclosure 9 weeks before trial date on June 13, 2011. On the disclosure request: i asked for a copy of the officers notes, typed if not legible and explanations for short-form writing.

On the disclosure request i provided my full address and cell phone number (voicemail if busy), and have not heard or received any mail or messages from the crown. What should i do?

Should i contact the prosecutor's office by phone, or go directly to the prosecutor's office and ask for disclosure? When i go to the prosecutor's office should i bring a letter re-requesting for the disclosure or a letter that says i showed up and they failed to produce disclosure?

How much time should i give the crown to produce the disclosure, and at what time should i not accept disclosure prior to the trial. For example, if they call me one-week before the trial, what should i tell them?

Also question regarding court lingo, when i show up to court August 18th, 2011 what should i say? Your worship i request for an adjournment which is attributed to the crown because they failed to produce disclosure in a timely manner, i requested for disclosure 9 weeks prior to the trial and made attempts weeks prior to the trial to receive it and have been unsuccessful?

9 weeks is probably sufficient time in a provincial offences case. I would request again by phone and by an additional letter or fax because it shows due diligence on your part. If you don't get disclosure by the court date, what you suggested should suffice, just be ready to explain what "additional attempts" you made after the 1st one.

It was an interesting day: almost everyone pleaded guilty to no pts and most of the officers were present. One defendant requested for a reduced fine and said he was unemployed with 3 kids, JP reduced it to no fine. One officer prematurely left, charge was dropped. We had one where the defendant adjourned in Mar 2011 due to lack of disclosure, after receiving it he deemed it illegible; the officer's notes were passed around and the JP & prosecutor deemed it illegible; but the prosecutor used her "discretion" and withdrew the charge. A lot of charges were dropped due to lack of evidence, the police officer would slip a piece of paper to the prosecutor and the charge would be dropped.

In my case the officer was present, i was ready for the adjournment I told the JP that i requested for disclosure 9 weeks prior to the trial; i advised that the prosecution said 6-8 weeks was sufficient; but the JP asked me why i didn't request for it earlier and in the future to side with caution and to give the prosecution even more time just in case

I even heard the prosecutor whisper to my officer, did you get this (my disclosure request)?

The prosecution then stated the officer will give me a copy of the notes at the end of the day with an explanation. I did get it, the officers notes were legible and they provided me with an explanation on the short-forms that were used.

More importantly the next court date is Dec 19, 2011 which is 14 months since my offense date. 11 (B) HERE I COME!!

14 months should easily put you in 11B territory. Check over the success stories that we've had here, or, if the Old City Hall court system gets too complicated, you could also look at hiring a paralegal. I think you're in good shape to get this charge stayed one way or another.