OHTA.ca

Hello everyone,

This is my first post and first offence in my 7 years experience. It is especially frustrating, since I'm following regulations very strictly - I'm one of those who never cuts people off, always uses turn signals when maneuvering and makes a full stop at stop signs and red light before turning right where not prohibited. I've been driving since 2010, I have a G licence and I have no traffic tickets whatsoever (in fact, I have never once been stopped by police and the only three encounters with police that I had were all R.I.D.E. routine checks at highway entrances and exits, which, of course, I passed, because drinking and driving is just stupid. I understand that neither of this is an excuse, and I'm not looking for any excuses. What I came here for is advice. Sorry if this is too much detail, but I thought that any info would be helpful, as I would like to receive as much useful advice I can and I'm exercising my right for a fair trial.

Here's the situation:

I was driving my friend's car. I was driving home on 401 from Kitchener to Toronto to pick up my kid from school. I was also under distress from my personal situation, although I'm not sure if it's relevant here. Driving in the left lane passing cars on the right when I saw a car in the rear view mirror rapidly approaching me, after which I immediately started looking for an opportunity to change the lane to the right when there is a space and it's safe as I believe anyone in the left lane should do in this situation. Not seeing an opportunity and with the car still rapidly approaching, I'm assuming I started speeding up when I saw the car behind me turning up the police blinkers. When it was safe, I signalled and changed the lane thinking I'm letting the police car pass. I was wrong, as the police car changed the lanes behind me. I understood that he was after me, so I signalled right, changed the lane again and then signalled again and safely parked at the shoulder, turned hazard lights on. The police car stopped behind. I immediately prepared licence, insurance and registration to produce at the officer's request. Officer approached on the right (I already had the window open and was holding the documents in my hands). Instead of introducing himself and requesting the documents (which I thought is what usually happens in these cases), the officer literally started yelling at me (he was pretty mad). That, of course, made me extremely uncomfortable and uneasy, although I understand that the officer might have thought I was a hot shot stunt driver, so hence the attitude. Anyway, not complaining, just thought it's worth mentioning.

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The conversation went something like this:

Officer [angrily]: Do you know you were going over (I don't remember the exact figure he mentioned, but it was definitely over 150), which is a stunt driving? You flew by me in the right lane in the construction zone, then changed the lane to the middle one and then to the left and started speeding. Do you know that your licence will be suspended, and your car is going to be impounded and you will be facing a fine of $2000 or more? Why were you speeding?

Me: I'm sorry sir, I wasn't aware, I saw a rapidly approaching car from behind and tried... (basically I tried explaining to him what I described above already).

Officer [still angry]: Why are you lying to me? Don't lie to me! You saw my car pushing you from behind? MY CAR? [going even more mad] Tell me the truth! Are you always driving like that or were you just late?

Me: No, sir, I'm sorry, I'm not always driving like that, but I am late to pick up my son from school...

Officer [still angry]: Licence and registration

Me: [I proceed giving him the documents and at that moment I mention it's not my car]

Officer [calms down a bit after he gets the docs]: Oh, it's not even your car?! What is your friend going to say when she finds out her car is impounded? What are you going to do?

Me: She will be mad...

Officer then proceeds with a series of personal questions about my relations with my friend and if we are living together (which we are not, although it's the same apartment building).

Me [a bit confused about those questions, but I answer them truthfully, as I have nothing to hold back]

Officer: Ok, wait here [proceeds to his car]

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He comes back after about 10-15 minutes (which I had to contemplate on what arrangements I should make in case I cannot make it in time to pick up my kiddo, and how I would continue my way to Toronto in case my car is impounded). He is much calmer at that time (definitely not angry anymore), says "I'm not going to charge you with stunt driving, I'm reducing the speed to 149 km/h to avoid that charge" and proceeds giving me two tickets, taking his time to explain that I have three options, etc, at that point he's cool:

1) Speeding 149 km/h in a posted 100 km/h zone, the "Code" section on the right of the Plate number field in the ticket is completely empty (there is no "R" or other values there).

2) Drive motor vehicle no currently validated permit (this was quite a surprise, I honestly was not aware my friend has not updated the licence plate sticker, although it's understandable why, because her birthday was in August, and she left Canada for three months in August, leaving me the car, so she completely forgot about it).

The court is more than 100 km away from the place I live. Now let me say I'm not making any excuses here or trying to get out of the consequences as I believe everyone should pay for their mistakes, get it over with and move on, hopefully avoiding these in the future. But, as far as speeding is concerned, while I suspect that could have really been the case (although I'm not sure how fast exactly), but truthfully, in that situation when I had to concentrate on moving over safely to let the pressing car behind pass I wasn't watching the speedometer, so I cannot even attest to exactly how fast I was going. There is a small chance it was a scare from the cop (he was extremely mad at first, or may be wanted to appear intimidating, which totally worked, by the way). As far as the licence plate sticker, I honestly was not aware of that (and, of course, I would never drive a car with the expired sticker knowingly, hoping for the best, that's just not me). Again, I'm not denying that it was my responsibility to make sure the car is drivable before I started driving it, and clearly I missed this sticker. I informed my friend and she immediately paid for the new sticker online and sent me the PDF with confirmation the next day after I got the ticket.

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After consulting with 3 "ticket fighting" agencies, all of them say the same:

1) If I decide to hire any of those agencies, they start with choosing an "Early resolution" option, discuss this with prosecutor, and then go from there, at the same time requesting disclosure to find out how strong the case is before going to trial, if it comes to that.

2) Since the officer has reduced the speed, it is unlikely anything can be done to further decrease the charge on the speeding ticket. Of course, in case of trial the prosecutor is most likely to revert the speed to the original, which, as per officers words, was over 150, so stunt driving (with all the "perks and pleasantries"). So the only option would probably be hoping for any reason to throw the ticket out completely either do paperwork mistake(s) or the officer not appearing in court. Which is unlikely, but still possible.

3) The licence plate sticker has a good chance to be thrown out because it appears as an honest mistake (which it was) and it was rectified immediately after getting the ticket.

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If I decide to handle it on my own, my understanding of the steps is as follows:

1) Choose early resolution option to make a telephone appointment with prosecutor.

2) First chance I get to travel to the court, request disclosure.

3) Get confirmation for the date of the call in mail (and, possibly, disclosure)

4) Call the prosecutor (or receive a call from the prosecutor) on the set date and time. May be try to explain myself and see where it leads me, perhaps the licence plate sticker ticket may be thrown out and speeding ticket reduced or changed or something. If any offer is made by the prosecutor, request a timeframe to consider it before deciding.

5) If any offers are made and I don't consider them satisfactory, and all other options are exhausted, refuse the offer and go to trial, hoping the cop wouldn't show up.

6) If the cop shows up and there are no other options, accept my fate and plea guilty to the original charges in the tickets (reduced speeding and absence of licence plate sticker).

Am I assuming correctly?

Also, here are two other questions I have:

1) I was told by every agency that the worst case scenario is even if everything else fails, pleading guilty to the existing tickets during trial, so it won't make it worse. However from what I read if you go to trial, the original speed will be reinstated and I might not have a chance to plead guilty to the reduced speed ticket.

2) From reading this forum, I see a lot of advice to avoid option 2 (early resolution) and choose option 3 instead right away. I don't entirely understand why that is the case, since choosing early resolution option might provide an extra time "cushion" that I desperately need, as my insurance renews in April next year, and, if anything, I would like to avoid increased insurance rates for at least a year if I'm convicted. Besides, the tickets say that by choosing "Early resolution" I do not forego the right to a trial. Also, if I chose option 3 (Trial option), for that I would have only 15 days to go in person to the court which is far away. I would like to avoid that.

Thank you very much for your feedback and advise.

firstoffence777 wrote:1) I was told by every agency that the worst case scenario is even if everything else fails, pleading guilty to the existing tickets during trial, so it won't make it worse. However from what I read if you go to trial, the original speed will be reinstated and I might not have a chance to plead guilty to the reduced speed ticket.

So which is it?

You wouldn't plead guilty during a trial. You'd plead before any trial starts. You will share the same court room and trial time with plenty of others. There may be 15-30 other individuals with the same exact time as you. Usually, all those people will be there for the same 1-3 officers. The prosecutor will speak to you one by one. They will usually ask you how you want to move forward. If there's an offer to be made, they'll make it. Then you'll choose whether or not you'll proceed with a guilty or not guilty plea. After you decide, they'll ask you to sit down and wait.

Once they talk to everyone, they'll start calling individuals up one by one. You'll stand in front of the court and they'll ask you how you wish to plead. They'll usually deal with all the guilty parties first so they can clear the room as quick as possible. The reality is practically no one ends up having a trial. You might have 1 or 2 people out of 15-30 who have a full blown trial. If you make it through all of that, they'll then ask that the charge be amended to the original speed.

firstoffence777 wrote:2) From reading this forum, I see a lot of advice to avoid option 2 (early resolution) and choose option 3 instead right away. I don't entirely understand why that is the case, since choosing early resolution option might provide an extra time "cushion" that I desperately need, as my insurance renews in April next year, and, if anything, I would like to avoid increased insurance rates for at least a year if I'm convicted. Besides, the tickets say that by choosing "Early resolution" I do not forego the right to a trial. Also, if I chose option 3 (Trial option), for that I would have only 15 days to go in person to the court which is far away. I would like to avoid that.

So what's the harm in using the "Early resolution" option then?

If you choose to go to trial, you'll have the equivalent of an early resolution meeting anyways. It'll save you an extra trip to the courthouse.

Speed limits not set by scientific data are an affront to Liberty as defined within the Constitution

Larkin described how Kovach was travelling at 115 kilometres per hour when her cruiser spun out — just one kilometre per hour shy of the critical curve speed for that stretch of road at the time, or the maximum speed a car can reach without losing traction.

However, the speed limit in the area is 50 km/h, police said.

bend wrote:You wouldn't plead guilty during a trial. You'd plead before any trial starts.

bend wrote:If you choose to go to trial, you'll have the equivalent of an early resolution meeting anyways. It'll save you an extra trip to the courthouse.

As to disclosure - would I need to go to the courthouse to request disclosure? My understanding that I can request it at any time. If so, can I do it by mail or online somewhere?

Thanks for your advice!

firstoffence777 wrote:Thanks a lot, this is very insightful! So it looks like even with "Early resolution", if I decide not to accept the offer (if any) and try my luck in court to see if, may be, the officer would not be there, I would still be able to plea guilty in court if I see the officer there, before the trial.

The officer may or may not be there either way. The officer is not really essential for the first little while. They wont necessarily be sitting there waiting the entire time. It's not as easy as showing up and looking for your officer. If your court date is for 11:00 pm, they may appear at 11:20.

firstoffence777 wrote:As to disclosure - would I need to go to the courthouse to request disclosure? My understanding that I can request it at any time. If so, can I do it by mail or online somewhere?

You can do it at any time but it would be best to do it immediately upon receiving your Notice of Trial.

There are several different ways to request disclosure. You can show up to the court house and do it in person but most people avoid this route due to the sake of convenience.

The best way is to visit their website. Some are now providing online forms where you just fill out some required info and hit the submit button. If not, practically all of them will provide a form for you in a PDF file. If you want, you can make your own form. There isn't a standard disclosure request form. They'll all look different.

Find a way to submit your form. Look for the contact info for the prosecutors office on the same website. If you can't find it, the disclosure request form they provide might have it somewhere (usually on the top). Usually you'll get a fax number or an email.

bend wrote:The officer may or may not be there either way. The officer is not really essential for the first little while. They wont necessarily be sitting there waiting the entire time. It's not as easy as showing up and looking for your officer. If your court date is for 11:00 pm, they may appear at 11:20.

bend wrote:There are several different ways to request disclosure.

Your advise is very much appreciated, especially by a novice, such as myself.

Do you think it's worth for me to update the thread with any movements on this case as I go, or do it when it's finished, or, perhaps, it's not worth for anyone her at all?

Eagle88 wrote:Speed limits not set by scientific data are an affront to Liberty as defined within the Constitution
Many roads have critical curve speed well above posted limits.(URL)

Larkin described how Kovach was travelling at 115 kilometres per hour when her cruiser spun out — just one kilometre per hour shy of the critical curve speed for that stretch of road at the time, or the maximum speed a car can reach without losing traction.

However, the speed limit in the area is 50 km/h, police said.

Can you quote the part of the constitution that is being offended ?

Liberty.

How long would you typically wait for the notice to come in mail after choosing "early resolution"?

I don't want to miss anything, but I also don't want to call and speed up the matter by reminding them about it.

So far it's been about two weeks since they received my option choice.

Is it a typical time for all of the courts, or do everyone has a specific response time, or does it all depend on their workload?

Thanks!

As your charge was reduced, you won't get any further reduction from the prosecutor. The insurance slip charge is certainly not getting dismissed since you already got an amazing reduction!!!! By the way, if you go through with an early resolution telephone meeting, this just gives them the opportunity to give you the Winlow warning (i.e. warning you that the speed will be amended back up). However, if you just go directly to trial, chances are they won't warn you until your trial date. When that happens, you can then ask for an adjournment to re-consider your options. You'll get the adjournment.

Now, if your objective is to see if the officer shows up for trial before deciding what to do, that's likely going to backfire. Most jurisdictions now call in the officers on a need basis---they no longer ask the officers to all attend at the same time. So, you'll go up in the morning (with everyone else) and tell the prosecutor what your plan is. If its to plead, they have no need to call in the officer and will just plead you out-----if however, you're going to trial, they'll just have the officer come to the court a few moments before they plan on calling your case up and when he/she is there, your case will be called up for trial. That way, they don't have a courtroom filled with officers sitting idly! So, after you've spoken with the prosecutor in the morning, you generally won't get another chance. You CAN of course, still plead guilty inside court when they call your matter up, but that usually means more money since the statutory fine applies (not the set fine!) and you'll see the JP's face not very pleased with you because you've wasted everyone's time and made the officer come in unnecessarily.