OHTA.ca

hey guys i need to know what the PROS (you guys) think about my situation. i will first post my questions then state what happened

1)the likely hood of getting it lowered to "following to close" or even dropped

2) how much would it affect my insurance being only 19 but with a full G , zero tickets, and doing driving school.

3) is there a recommended parralegal in ontario region within a 30-45 min drive to see that has a consistent win rate rather than going to x copper and wasting 575$

so it started like this. got up to go to work last Wednesday morning at 6:10am left the house and on my way down a slightly wavy (as in minor elevation in road up and down nothing major) country road (80km limit) i was a small distance about 200-300ft behind a flat bed sod truck (ford f 550) i was not under the influence of drugs/drinks/devices. the truck went over the final small hill that was a good 4 ft elevated at the top of the hill compared to the level road before it then slightly goes down 1-2 ft then levels out again and me being in a small bmw that isnt high up like a truck i cant see over the incline until im right on the top of it. this was at 6:45 now @ the time of the accident i was going 85km when i went over the hill and saw the truck about 100-ft away with his brakes on but he was still moving . so i started to apply my brakes lightly thinking he was just slowing and then realized this guy put his brakes on heavily and after the accident i realized he was trying to make his turn to the right into a sod field that has a small cut out between the 2 ft high bush running down the road (not paved or anything just gravel) that you cant reallly even see until your like 30 ft away from it. and he WASNT signalling he just had his brakes on. so unfortunately i didnt react the best and because im still going 65-70km i decided it be better to try and swerve out of his way than hit him square on, but it happened so quickly running down 85-100 ft at 65-70kmh i clipped his back left/ my front right and we had a connection you could say. my airbag didn't deploy none of them did and i wacked the top of my head of my wheel

i was spinning and in shock my hands had just punched the front odometer display and my right hand/thumb was just over extended on the manual shifter and i didnt feel a thing until it was all over 3 hours later in my bed. my issues are when the officer had his "report" i said i was ok even though my hands were shaking vigorously and he even said you sure you dont want an ambulance which was stupid considering im in shock and he knew it so how would i know whats best for me . but this was about 40-45 min after the accident he took his report and he said how fast were you going and i said 85 and later i looked at the report and saw it showed both statements and he saidi hit going 85 and the other guy was going 15 . I HIT GOING 65 not 85 and i dont know how to fix that error maybe in court it can be fought or waved becasue of shock and trama. but ya thats everything that happened so please ANSWER ASAP REGARDING WHAT TO SAY TO PARALEGAL or who to go to if anybody know any good places or what my odds are IT WASNT CARELESS I WAS PAYING ATTENTION it was merly bad timing and perception due to the other driver breaking hard and me coming over the hill and not having time to react

and finaly i know some insurance drops people in cases like this and what on avergae does it go up by 100-200% or in general having that charge but the odds of me getting following to close i think are better than keeping this charge and a couple paralegal places i called all said could possibly be dropped even . thanks any help will be rewarded

Careless Driving is the go-to charge when it comes to rear-end accidents; Ontario police overcharge with careless, anticipating a plea to a lessor offence.

The error with respect to speeds is not going to make or break this case; you can contact the police station and ask that they amend/change it from 85 to 65.

The officer will not appear at your trial date, the other driver will appear as the crown witness. The other driver will be testifying as to what happened. They won't know what your speeds you were going, and only that you made contact.

Were you wearing your seat belt? Does your seat belts tighten during sudden acceleration and stops? I'm surprised that your head hit the steering wheel.

1) Highly likely, that it will be reduced. The crown has a number of charges they can reduce to:

S141(5) Left turn ‑ fail to afford reasonable opportunity to avoid collision - $110 + 3pts

S158(1) Follow too closely - $110 + 4pts

2) If you're found guilty of S130 Careless Driving, your current policy most likely will be cancelled. You will have to go to Facility. Which will be tens of thousands per year.

3) Ontario region is very big. There will be paralegal offices near the court house where you have to file the ticket for trial, you can also search online. As long as the paralegal is licensed, they should be able to do a decent job.

If you're just looking to cut a deal and get the charges reduced, you can go about this on your own. The charges can be dropped if the other driver fails to appear at your trial date; similar to a police no-show.

I think it's in your best interest to retain legal counsel and let them handle this.

iFly55 wrote:Careless Driving is the go-to charge when it comes to rear-end accidents; Ontario police overcharge with careless, anticipating a plea to a lessor offence.

The error with respect to speeds is not going to make or break this case; you can contact the police station and ask that they amend/change it from 85 to 65.

The officer will not appear at your trial date, the other driver will appear as the crown witness. The other driver will be testifying as to what happened. They won't know what your speeds you were going, and only that you made contact.

Were you wearing your seat belt? Does your seat belts tighten during sudden acceleration and stops? I'm surprised that your head hit the steering wheel.

1) Highly likely, that it will be reduced. The crown has a number of charges they can reduce to:

S141(5) Left turn ‑ fail to afford reasonable opportunity to avoid collision - $110 + 3pts

S158(1) Follow too closely - $110 + 4pts

2) If you're found guilty of S130 Careless Driving, your current policy most likely will be cancelled. You will have to go to Facility. Which will be tens of thousands per year.

3) Ontario region is very big. There will be paralegal offices near the court house where you have to file the ticket for trial, you can also search online. As long as the paralegal is licensed, they should be able to do a decent job.

If you're just looking to cut a deal and get the charges reduced, you can go about this on your own. The charges can be dropped if the other driver fails to appear at your trial date; similar to a police no-show.

I think it's in your best interest to retain legal counsel and let them handle this.

hey thanks for the reply helps a bunch with stress. i honestly think the s141(5) would be the end cause or what i wil go for that is exactly what mine was so i will be aiming for that one .2) i understand that the odds of being dropped are high so im going to make the xcopper who my mom went with (even though i dot want to but hes a xcop and a parallegal) ironic even though i didnt want to go with them and is there anything you can recommend i bring up or i can use to my advantage for this.

finally as you said above the "police officer wont show" 1) why is that is it becasue its not a big deal to him and he doesnt want to waste his time 2) if he doesnt show is that like what you said about the witness being a no show thus dropping the ticket or aslong as the witness shows its still fine to continue with the trial. 3) so like i said previous if the witness doesnt show but the cop does is it still a case close or visa versa./ doesnt the judge just move the date ahead one time to try and reschedule and if the other guys dont show up the second time then ITS canned. ?? thanks mate

They're not going to let you plea to 141(5). The evidence in the case doesn't support that charge. They may offer 148(5) fail to turn out to the left to avoid collision.

Follow too close may be a stretch as well. Based on your own evidence that the truck was 100 feet way when you saw it.

The officer is usually subpoenaed for collision trials. They may have measurements, tire marks, or other road evenidence to testify to.

If a witness doesn't show up, the JP has several options. Dismiss the charge, new court date, proceed with any witness present. Even is during a warrant for the arrest of the witness.

[quote="Decatur"]They're not going to let you plea to 141(5). The evidence in the case doesn't support that charge. They may offer 148(5) fail to turn out to the left to avoid collision.

Follow too close may be a stretch as well. Based on your own evidence that the truck was 100 feet way when you saw it.

The officer is usually subpoenaed for collision trials. They may have measurements, tire marks, or other road evenidence to testify to.

If a witness doesn't show up, the JP has several options. Dismiss the charge, new court date, proceed with any witness present. Even is during a warrant for the arrest of the witness.[/quote

the only measurement they took was the closest intersection which was 365 metres down the road thats it no pictures or anything else taken and im just saying around 100ft from the time i got to the hill to react. and fully say he was stopping it was a judgement call that was unlucky but wasnt careless so ya i looked up what you said 148(5) so how many points or a ticket is that 148(5) and ya i wasnt tail gating this guy so i wouldnt get the follow to close i was just sudjesting what happened. and my main question if the POLICE OFFICER doesnt show up is it dropped or like you said a witness is both the officer and the other person in the accident ??

@Decatur is correct, my mistake... the amended charged would be 148(5) and not 141(5).

S148(5) carries two demerit points: http://www.ontario.ca/laws/regulation/940339

Unless the major collision bureau was involved and an accident reconstruction done following your accident, and as Decatur described they took measurements/pictures/evidence/dash-cam; downloaded data from the vehicles. If the officer did not do any of these, the officer has no evidence to provide the courts as to what happened.

I've sat in many careless driving trials for minor rear-end collisions; i have yet to see an officer appear for any of these. A lot of them get withdrawn because the other driver fails to appear or when they do show up... they're plead to amended charges. The one time I've seen them proceed to trial, the other driver made conflicting testimony and ended up being unreliable... defendant found not-guilty.

Officer can only provide evidence to the state of the vehicles after the accident; he can't provide hearsay evidence of what you or the other driver told him.

Based on the type of collision you described, I believe the officer will not show. It's going to be up to the other driver to carry this case for the crown.

iFly55 wrote:@Decatur is correct, my mistake... the amended charged would be 148(5) and not 141(5).

S148(5) carries two demerit points: http://www.ontario.ca/laws/regulation/940339

Unless the major collision bureau was involved and an accident reconstruction done following your accident, and as Decatur described they took measurements/pictures/evidence/dash-cam; downloaded data from the vehicles. If the officer did not do any of these, the officer has no evidence to provide the courts as to what happened.

I've sat in many careless driving trials for minor rear-end collisions; i have yet to see an officer appear for any of these. A lot of them get withdrawn because the other driver fails to appear or when they do show up... they're plead to amended charges. The one time I've seen them proceed to trial, the other driver made conflicting testimony and ended up being unreliable... defendant found not-guilty.

Officer can only provide evidence to the state of the vehicles after the accident; he can't provide hearsay evidence of what you or the other driver told him.

Based on the type of collision you described, I believe the officer will not show. It's going to be up to the other driver to carry this case for the crown.

ok thats way better than loosing 6 or 4 ill talk to my paralegal for that one. and no he didnt take pictures with a camera or aything just a basic report and let us go after that, my car has no collision so i got it towed to my mechanics nothing to be reconstructed and no major collision bureau or anything and there was two officers at the scene but i guess the only one that matters is the one that made the report correct?? the other one was just a traffic helper more or lss and wrote me the ticket. pretty much the one guy gave me a ticket and the other wrote the report does that mean both have to show at the trial date or just one of them ?? and nobody was injured or ambulance called just the accident and they left after. but ya once again though only measurement taken was the one to the closet street being 1200 ft away but no pictures with cameras or anything just a ticket and thats it. so my odds are looking pretty good then to get it lowered down to the other charge with 2 points do you know how much the ticket carries aswell like 100$$

1) would the other charge 148(5) make my insurance go up dramatically still or just like 15% or 50% not like 200% with the careless charge.

2) do both officers have to arrive in court since one wrote a ticket and one the report (which is more important in this case)

3) how much is the ticket for 148(5) thanks

I don't believe that either officer will have to appear to secure a Careless Driving conviction.

The crown only needs the other driver's testimony to convict you of Careless Driving. Officers' appearances would be extra, and not essential. Maybe the one that did the measurement could appear and testify to that.

Set Fine: http://www.ontariocourts.ca/ocj/how-do- ... hedule-43/

Victim Surcharge: http://www.ontario.ca/laws/regulation/000161

Court Fee: http://www.ontario.ca/laws/regulation/900945

S148(5) carries a $110 fine. It should be considered a minor conviction, similar to speeding +15km/hr.

Set Fine: $85

Victim Surcharge: $20

Court Fee: $5

Total Fine: $110

iFly55 wrote:I don't believe that either officer will have to appear to secure a Careless Driving conviction.

The crown only needs the other driver's testimony to convict you of Careless Driving. Officers' appearances would be extra, and not essential. Maybe the one that did the measurement could appear and testify to that.

Set Fine: http://www.ontariocourts.ca/ocj/how-do- ... hedule-43/

Victim Surcharge: http://www.ontario.ca/laws/regulation/000161

Court Fee: http://www.ontario.ca/laws/regulation/900945

S148(5) carries a $110 fine. It should be considered a minor conviction, similar to speeding +15km/hr.

Set Fine: $85

Victim Surcharge: $20

Court Fee: $5

Total Fine: $110

ok thanks i understand fully now. so is it bad to call the other guy and say dont show up lol i have his phone #. but are they obligated to like do most witness in this case he was out nothing im out my car and it wasnt even his truck it was a work truck so he didnt loos anything but a hours work even though his brother owns the company so i think hell be ok but even if the other guy is in court and says what happened and then as said above i would be charged with the 148(5) becasue there were no witnesses to confirm i wasnt paying attention or anything not saying i wasnt but you cant keep that charge unless there is actual proof i was careless . realistaiclly it sounds like ill get that other charge because its not like anybody was hurt. no major collision beaurea as you said or whatever so from your prespective as what happened above what are my chances pretty high to get the other charge. 2) and the odds of my charge sticking is what ?? even if he shows up in court hell say oh i saw the guy coming in from behind me coming in quick and he clipped my back left. no dashcams or any witnesses other than car damage.

Actually, the officer absolutely needs to attend. Only they can properly identify you. Without that, the prosecutor fails to meet its case. Its weird that someone would even suggest that the officer is not essential; its not possible to prove the case otherwise since it fails on the ID element.

By the way, the prosecutor will only offer you Fail to Turn Out to the Left to Avoid a Collision if in fact there was another lane available to you. It also doesn't apply to the 'right' side. So, if there was no lane available to your left, they'll likely just offer you Follow Too Closely-----which is an included offence in Careless Driving anyway.

The fact that you rear-ended the truck without any other witnesses is actually quite common. The skid marks and way you hit the vehicle will be quite self-explanatory. Don't even think about lying that he was reversing on the highway and backed in to you. You'd be surprised how much evidence can come out at your 'criminal' trial for perjury. Once your comments are on the record, you'll be bound to them. If they suspect you are lying, they now will be better able to investigate any potential security camera's in the area, eye witnesses, on-board car diagnostics, cellphone gps, car gps, etc. You'd be amazed what sorts of evidence that isn't used in a simple Provincial Offences trial is later found for a criminal-related case. Don't make life more difficult for yourself!

highwaystar wrote:Actually, the officer absolutely needs to attend. Only they can properly identify you. Without that, the prosecutor fails to meet its case. Its weird that someone would even suggest that the officer is not essential; its not possible to prove the case otherwise since it fails on the ID element.

By the way, the prosecutor will only offer you Fail to Turn Out to the Left to Avoid a Collision if in fact there was another lane available to you. It also doesn't apply to the 'right' side. So, if there was no lane available to your left, they'll likely just offer you Follow Too Closely-----which is an included offence in Careless Driving anyway.

The fact that you rear-ended the truck without any other witnesses is actually quite common. The skid marks and way you hit the vehicle will be quite self-explanatory. Don't even think about lying that he was reversing on the highway and backed in to you. You'd be surprised how much evidence can come out at your 'criminal' trial for perjury. Once your comments are on the record, you'll be bound to them. If they suspect you are lying, they now will be better able to investigate any potential security camera's in the area, eye witnesses, on-board car diagnostics, cellphone gps, car gps, etc. You'd be amazed what sorts of evidence that isn't used in a simple Provincial Offences trial is later found for a criminal-related case. Don't make life more difficult for yourself!

so what you are saying is that if the officers dont show up and even if the witness does the case is still dropped because there is no official legal identification it was me ?? what happens if the one offcer shows up who wrote the report but the one who wrote me the ticket doesnt ?? is my ticket still dropped becasue the one who wrote it didnt show up . and it is as i said above he wasnt reversing or doing anything stupid he just wasnt signalling and put his brakes on heavy probably to make his turn on time and i had a lapsein judgement with how far he was and how quck it comes up and took my foot off the brake and then tried to overtake to the left since there was no oncoming traffic but that didnt work out well apparently

so it happened on airport road mount hope ontario. where there is a solid yellow line down the entire road even though you can see for the most part what is coming and where my acident happened there was plenty of space like a good 1km i could see ahead of the oncoming but i do know you can pass and cross a solid yellow aslong as there is no oncoming traffic and that there is no traffic ahead of the vehicle you are overtaking which in my case was safe. there is just one lane going east and one going west. the right "lane " wouldve been me going into a ditch . and yes as the damage was my front right got clipped there are NO ccameras no GPS no measurements other than the closest intersection which was 1300ft down the road thats the only thing he measured with the car he didnt take out a camera or anything. or measureing devices. no eye witnesses nobody came across us until 2 minutes after who wasnt on the road when it happened and there was no houses around just trees on each side so just him and me .

what happens if he shows up to court but neither officer does as i thin ki said eariler does it still continue or without the police officer the case is dropped as thereis no official was to id me.

and when you said if there "was no lane availabel to my left" is that like a highway type lane where each side east and west bound has two lanes or in my case where it was a sinlg lane each direction you can still cross it aslong as it is safe to do so and no oncoming traffic and no possible risk to the driver you are overtaking. thanks man

First off, if you're already at trial, its because you didn't take any offer----pretty risky move on your part. However, if you ARE at trial and neither officer shows up, then the prosecutor can't make out their case since they can't properly identify you. If they don't get an adjournment, then the case will undoubtedly be dismissed at that point. However, that is seldom happens since officers generally DO show up.

BTW, the officer that IS essential to the matter is the one that identified you; not necessarily the one who wrote you the ticket. Its the one who actually asked for your driver's license and reviewed it. Even though other officers may have relied upon the ID of such officer, it would be hearsay if they tried to say they identified you----since they didn't, the other officer did!

So, again, if the officer that identifies you doesn't attend, if the prosecution doesn't get an adjournment, they won't be able to establish a case against you.

As for the fail to turn out to the left to avoid a collision, the left lane must be in the same driving direction as you are going. Even though there may be a lane to your left available, if its for on-coming traffic, then you won't qualify for that charge. It sounds like in your case, you don't qualify. So, the only charge that seems to fit for you is Follow Too Closely, which I said before is actually an included offence within Careless Driving. So, even if they can't prove careless driving, the court could still convict you of Follow Too Closely.

highwaystar wrote:First off, if you're already at trial, its because you didn't take any offer----pretty risky move on your part. However, if you ARE at trial and neither officer shows up, then the prosecutor can't make out their case since they can't properly identify you. If they don't get an adjournment, then the case will undoubtedly be dismissed at that point. However, that is seldom happens since officers generally DO show up.

BTW, the officer that IS essential to the matter is the one that identified you; not necessarily the one who wrote you the ticket. Its the one who actually asked for your driver's license and reviewed it. Even though other officers may have relied upon the ID of such officer, it would be hearsay if they tried to say they identified you----since they didn't, the other officer did!

So, again, if the officer that identifies you doesn't attend, if the prosecution doesn't get an adjournment, they won't be able to establish a case against you.

As for the fail to turn out to the left to avoid a collision, the left lane must be in the same driving direction as you are going. Even though there may be a lane to your left available, if its for on-coming traffic, then you won't qualify for that charge. It sounds like in your case, you don't qualify. So, the only charge that seems to fit for you is Follow Too Closely, which I said before is actually an included offence within Careless Driving. So, even if they can't prove careless driving, the court could still convict you of Follow Too Closely.

nonono im going to parallegal tomorrow i havent taken any offer yet or choosen anything its been 5 days only it happened last wednesday thats why im asking what i am to be prepared im not in trial yet sorry if i made it seem like i was or said something but im not and the paralegal i talked to said it would qualify the fact there was a lane there its not like its a solid white line ? not being a d*ck by saying this but are you one you seem to know what your talking about but i dont think she could say i do qualify for that charge randomly unless she knew what she was talking about. i need to get a minor offense or i will be dropped i already talked to insurance with my plan if i get a serious charge like driving to close or dangerous driving theyll drop me. and i just went over all the info on the ticket the one who wrote me the ticket was the one who asked for my info and stuff so as you said hes the important one. but i know it might not mean alot but i reviewed the vehicle collision report and he put the wrong car model down i own a 2000 bmw 323i

he put down 2000 bmw 3i2 ??? does this qualify for wrong info on report or ticket or whatever or it doesnt matter since the info n the ticket was correct??

the paper im referring to is the one they give you for a personal copy or whatever i have all my info on it and then all the other drivers aswell. is this an imporatnt piece of info where i can fight he put the wrong info down or no ?? thanks so there is no other charges or anything i can fight for id rather save 600$ if the end result is a serious charge and not go to a paralegal. since nomatter what its a serious charge in the end doesnt matter on my end either way for 3 years its on there and im screwed . but are you sure it has to be both lanes on the same side where did you read or see that could you give me a reference. becasue the majority of roads in the city or in country are all one way so i find it hard that in this case the "failure to move to the left to avoid collosion" would only apply to a double lane road??

UPDATE I FOUND THIS read the middle part ill put it in read

(5) Every person in charge of a vehicle or on horseback on a highway who is overtaking another vehicle or equestrian shall turn out to the left so far as may be necessary to avoid a collision with the vehicle or equestrian overtaken, and the person overtaken is not required to leave more than one-half of the roadway free. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 148 (5).

it says so far as may be necessary.....as in aslong as i do it legally on any road it will be fine doesnt say anywhere it has to be 2 lane road or single just says out to left so far AS MAY BE NECESSARY. so am, i not in the clear then ??? and qualify for the charge ?

Decatur wrote:They're not going to let you plea to 141(5). The evidence in the case doesn't support that charge. They may offer 148(5) fail to turn out to the left to avoid collision.

Follow too close may be a stretch as well. Based on your own evidence that the truck was 100 feet way when you saw it.

The officer is usually subpoenaed for collision trials. They may have measurements, tire marks, or other road evenidence to testify to.

If a witness doesn't show up, the JP has several options. Dismiss the charge, new court date, proceed with any witness present. Even is during a warrant for the arrest of the witness.

as the other fellow just said i wont qualify for this charge becasue it was a one way road in each direction east and west is this true where is there documentation to verify this?? the majority of roads unless its a major road or highway are usually single lane atleast in the country and 99% of city roads through surverys and towns??

and he said i would only qualify for follow to close but i wasnt following to close at all im 300ft back until i came over the hil then i hit him i wasnt close to him at all its not like there going to offer me a lessor charge simply because i dont qualify for a lower charge because follow to close has nothing to do with my accident its just a charge that is higher than failure to turn to the left . ASLONG AS IT IS A MINOR charge and not a MAJOR OR SERIOUS i can keep insurance with my company. WHEN IS A CHARGE different between a minor and a major like is a 3 demerit point a major?? what charge is above failure to turn to the left 148(5) but still below follow to close there has to be one thats 3 points or whatever

Demerit points have nothing to do with whether a charge is considered minor or major by insurance. Insurance companies have their own policies on how to make that determination. Ask your insurance company if they can give you a list.

The fact that both the police officer AND the other driver have to show up to testify is a bonus in this case. The police officer will 99.9% of the time be there, but the other driver is more of a 50/50 thing.

Remember also that you do NOT need to testify against yourself. Most people make the mistake of trying to tell their side of the story, which ends up putting the final nail in their own coffin. Yes, there are some times that you should testify, but usually you should not. And everything you say above leads me to say that you should NOT testify as you will just incriminate yourself.

Read this thread: http://www.ontariohighwaytrafficact.com/topic7032.html

Then you should probably read this one about representing yourself:

And with regards to fighting Careless Driving charge:

Look at this thread and scroll down to about the 12 post where it mentions R v Hollyoake 2010 ONCJ 578