OHTA.ca

Ok I'll start off by saying what I did was really stupid and I have learned my lesson.

I needed to make a left hand turn but traffic was backed up pretty far and the left hand turn lane did not start yet. Even though the lane did not start yet I still went to the left of traffic so that I could drive further up. A police officer drove by and saw me doing this and he made a u turn to start following me. When he did this I took a right from the left hand turn lane and started speeding. I ran a stop sign and then made a right then a left hand turn. He was behind me and just turned on his lights so I pulled over.

The tickets I got were:

- Speeding 80km/h in a 50

- Disobey stop sign - Fail to stop

- Turn - Not in safety

I'm thinking I may go to court and fight it because I do not think he could have seen me run the stop sign or have accurately seen how fast I was going since he was pretty far back.

He was also telling me that if I go to trial he will find out how fast he was going and if he was going 50km over the speed limit to catch up to me (which he probably was) he will make my punishment much worse.

He also told me that if I provide him with any information on drug dealing that he will reduce my punishment (my friend who was in the car had a possession charge)

So my questions are:

-Since I have a family insurance policy, will it effect my parents premium if I cancel my policy with the insurance before I get charged?

-Will he actually help me out if I provide him with the info he asked me for?

-How much can he reduce my punishment by assuming that he does show up for the court date? (which he probably will)

-What are my chances if I do fight this in court?

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

first of all... Nothing will happen with the insurance until you are convicted and it can only happen at renewal time.. not in the middle... (EG.. I have a ticket that got plead down to a minor... my lawyer "Pointts" is setting a resolution date for late march, my renewal is in February... so in February my policy will renew with no ticket... in march the ticket will go on my record no rate increase until the next year in February.)

In your situation I would definitely consult with an expert... points, xcopper, etc.. you have 3 tickets and that when added up will disqualify you for insurance all together & suspend your license (G2,) and if you have a G it may be suspended also. This will stay on your driving record for 3 years.

As for the drug thing... can we say grab your fishing gear... the HTA is not like the Criminal code of Canada... in the HTA they are all fines (usually set amounts) if there is an amount on the tickets that's the amount you pay and an officer has no say to anything concerning punishment. That's just his attempt to intimidate you.. there isn't a "sentencing" portion of the trial (should you choose that option).. you or your paralegal goes in for early resolution, and an offer is made... if you choose that offer that's it done, you pay your fines and take your rate increases for 3 years...and this can be accomplished without even stepping foot in a court room (if you have representation). If you take it to trial and try to get tickets dismissed the Justice (not judge) will decide your guilt and you pay your tickets and go on your way... Officer has no say (That's if he shows up for the trial..)

From MTO

Most Ontario speeding tickets have demerit points associated with them. The officer does not decide or assign an amount of points to you, but charges you with a km/hr rate over the limit. This rate is connected with a specific amount of demerit points decided by the Ministry of Transportation. An outline of speeding ticket demerit points is below:

30 – 49 km/hr over = 4 points (major infraction)

Speeding ticket fines are based on km/hr over the posted speeding limit. The chart below outlines the speeding fines for different speeds over the posted limit. Please note that every ticket in Ontario will have a Victim Surcharge added to the Set Fine which goes toward helping the victims of violent crimes. This is why there are two amounts listed on every offence notice.

30-49 km/h The amount of km over times $6.00 = fine

Fail to stop for sign

•3 demerit points

•$85.00 set fine

Turn not in safety

2 demerit points

$110 fine.

Hope this helps a little..

if you're convicted of all three offences, the points will not be cumulative; they will only consider the ticket with the highest points.

http://www.simonborys.ca/2011/06/demeri ... /[quote]If multiple convictions arise out of the same set of circumstances then you are only assessed the points associated with the single largest ticket.[/quote]i would request disclosure from the officer right away, it appears he's unsure of what your speed was and has laid the charge based on the speeds he believed he had to travel.

w.r.t. increasing the speeding amount, i'm guessing he planned on reviewing his dash-cam video which may also show his cruiser speed?

he could show up to court and say that the +30kph was a reduced speed and the actual was +50kph; but to lay the $2000 S172 Stunt Driving charge he would have to serve you with a part 3 summons within six months of the alleged offence.

___________________

the prosecution will most likely drop one or more charges in exchange for a plea-deal to one of the charges and possibly further reduce that charge and fine.

Your parents premiums will only increase if (a) you're convicted and (b) you're on the policy. If the premiums do go up to unaffordable # as a result of conviction(s), your parents can exclude you from the policy so the premiums aren't affected.

Thank you iFly55... I didn't know that about the ticket.. but can they do that with speeding tickets?

Ether way if this were me I'd be getting a paralegal..

iFly55 wrote:

w.r.t. increasing the speeding amount, i'm guessing he planned on reviewing his dash-cam video which may also show his cruiser speed?

he could show up to court and say that the +30kph was a reduced speed and the actual was +50kph; but to lay the $2000 S172 Stunt Driving charge he would have to serve you with a part 3 summons within six months of the alleged offence.

___________________

the prosecution will most likely drop one or more charges in exchange for a plea-deal to one of the charges and possibly further reduce that charge and fine.

Your parents premiums will only increase if (a) you're convicted and (b) you're on the policy. If the premiums do go up to unaffordable # as a result of conviction(s), your parents can exclude you from the policy so the premiums aren't affected.

Thanks, that was really helpful.

Would he be able to even use his cruiser speed as evidence to give me the ticket? And if he does decide to change it to stunt driving what other charges would I be looking at?

Also I heard that Peel regional police don't have dash cams is this true? (It probably isn't but that's what my friend told me.)

Would I be able to get the dash cam footage.

Jake1994 wrote:Would he be able to even use his cruiser speed as evidence to give me the ticket?

Yes.

It's my understanding that they can't change the charge. you're there to fight the speeding they can't just change it to something else to suit their needs. (I believe this falls under double jeparody) This can only be done if the circumstances changed... IE.. you got charged with aggravated assault first.. then the victim dies so it's upped to murder. Now keep in mind that HTA court is different then Criminal court... they could charge you with something under the Criminal code on top of what you currently have.

My wife asked my lawyer the same thing.. I was charged with Careless driving and she wanted to know if I fight the charge (trial) can they stick me with something else instead of that... and the answer is no...

Jake, if it were me I would be doing the following

1. consult with a Pointts, xcopper, etc.. (first consult is free usually) as it was mentioned the crown might drop some tickets for a plea deal... In my opinion $500 is worth keeping your license...

2. Chose one of the options on the ticket (lawyer will help explain everything)

3. Request crown disclosure, (this is all the evidence against you) this can help you plan your defence.

iFly55 wrote:If the premiums do go up to unaffordable # as a result of conviction(s), your parents can exclude you from the policy so the premiums aren't affected.

Um.. I would like to know what insurance company does this...because I have never heard of this. My car is insured with a different company then my bike and when I asked the car insurance to remove me from the policy, that my wife will be the sole driver of the car they said that they can't.. that all licensed drivers have to be added regardless if they drive the car or not because they have access to it. When I spoke with my bike insurance company they told me the same thing.... (if my wife decided to get her M license she's automatically added). Same thing happened when my daughter got her licence. Even though she didn't drive the car she was added to the policy... That's why the insurance companies ask "are there any other licensed drivers in the house." Failure to answer this truthfully could result in cancellation.

pirish wrote:It's my understanding that they can't change the charge. you're there to fight the speeding they can't just change it to something else to suit their needs. (I believe this falls under double jeparody) This can only be done if the circumstances changed... IE.. you got charged with aggravated assault first.. then the victim dies so it's upped to murder. Now keep in mind that HTA court is different then Criminal court... they could charge you with something under the Criminal code on top of what you currently have.

My wife asked my lawyer the same thing.. I was charged with Careless driving and she wanted to know if I fight the charge (trial) can they stick me with something else instead of that... and the answer is no...

Jake, if it were me I would be doing the following

1. consult with a Pointts, xcopper, etc.. (first consult is free usually) as it was mentioned the crown might drop some tickets for a plea deal... In my opinion $500 is worth keeping your license...

2. Chose one of the options on the ticket (lawyer will help explain everything)

3. Request crown disclosure, (this is all the evidence against you) this can help you plan your defence.

The response from your lawyer may have been for your specific situation; the facts may not have supported other charges. Not to go too off-topic but S.55 of the POA allows for a finding of guilt w.r.t. "included offences", this is usually applied to S.130 Careless Driving which is a broad and general charge.

http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/html/statut ... e]Included offences

55. Where the offence as charged includes another offence, the defendant may be convicted of an offence so included that is proved, although the whole offence charged is not proved. R.S.O. 1990, c. P.33, s. 55.[/quote]__________________________

Within thirty-days of the alleged offence the officer can serve the defendant with a Part I ticket (Provincial Offence Notice).

http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/html/statut ... quote]PART I

COMMENCEMENT OF PROCEEDINGS BY CERTIFICATE OF OFFENCE

Service

(3) The offence notice or summons shall be served personally upon the person charged within thirty days after the alleged offence occurred. R.S.O. 1990, c. P.33, s. 3 (3).[/quote]Or within six months of the alleged offence serve the defendant with a Part III Summons.

http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/html/statut ... quote]PART III

COMMENCEMENT OF PROCEEDING BY INFORMATION[/quote]http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/html/statut ... Limitation

76. (1) A proceeding shall not be commenced after the expiration of any limitation period prescribed by or under any Act for the offence or, where no limitation period is prescribed, after six months after the date on which the offence was, or is alleged to have been, committed.[/quote]If you read Part III of the POA, you'll see that serving a summons is not as simple as writing a ticket... for the officer to go through all that trouble it would have to be serious. It also doesn't allow for prosecutors/police officer to change the charge when you're at trial; especially if the trial takes place after the six-month limitation period.

pirish wrote:

iFly55 wrote:If the premiums do go up to unaffordable # as a result of conviction(s), your parents can exclude you from the policy so the premiums aren't affected.

Um.. I would like to know what insurance company does this...because I have never heard of this. My car is insured with a different company then my bike and when I asked the car insurance to remove me from the policy, that my wife will be the sole driver of the car they said that they can't.. that all licensed drivers have to be added regardless if they drive the car or not because they have access to it. When I spoke with my bike insurance company they told me the same thing.... (if my wife decided to get her M license she's automatically added). Same thing happened when my daughter got her licence. Even though she didn't drive the car she was added to the policy... That's why the insurance companies ask "are there any other licensed drivers in the house." Failure to answer this truthfully could result in cancellation.

I believe you're correct about disclosing licensed drivers under the same roof; you can also have the drivers excluded from your policy by having them sign an exclusion form. Just because your roommate has a DUI doesn't mean your policy should be rated based on him if he's not driving your vehicle.

Forms from the FSCO

Section 149 in the Insurance Act of Ontario also facilitates this exclusion.

http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/html/statut ... ]Insurance Act

Excluded driver endorsement

249. A named insured may stipulate by endorsement to a contract evidenced by a motor vehicle liability policy that any person named in the endorsement is an excluded driver under the contract. R.S.O. 1990, c. I.8, s. 249.[/quote]_____________________

You may want to speak to someone higher up the food-chain at the insurance company; first-line call centre folks may not be aware.

Awesome, thanks for the info... I understand about roomates, etc... but the insurance company was referring to family members... but again thanks for the refrences.. now I have something to quote when I speak to a supervisor...

As for the charges being changed... it's the limitation that protects him correct? I knew they couldn't just change the charge during a proceding but didn't know the exact circumstances that prevented it... thanks for clarifying....

How about you thank your lucky stars you didn't get charged for dangerous driving or flight from police? Pretty stupid move on your part.

trenchknife wrote:How about you thank your lucky stars you didn't get charged for dangerous driving or flight from police? Pretty stupid move on your part.

Is this his mom?

hawaii wrote:

trenchknife wrote:How about you thank your lucky stars you didn't get charged for dangerous driving or flight from police? Pretty stupid move on your part.

Is this his mom?

You should get disclosure to see what evidence he has to support his speeding and stop sign charge. You are, however, very lucky you didn't get charged with Flight From Police or even C.C.C. Resisting Arrest.

I don't think from what it sounds like that he has any real evidence on your speed or you running the stop sign.

trenchknife wrote: Pretty stupid move on your part.

JohnDeere wrote:You should get disclosure to see what evidence he has to support his speeding and stop sign charge. You are, however, very lucky you didn't get charged with Flight From Police or even C.C.C. Resisting Arrest.

I don't think from what it sounds like that he has any real evidence on your speed or you running the stop sign.

If the cop doesn't ' light up ' the car how could he/she lay the first charge you mentioned ? Resisting arrest , give me a break . How could he resist arrest if the cop never tried to arrest ?

With regards to evidence , don't count your chickens before they hatch.

Wishing you the best !