Hello everyone,
I just wanted to reply and let everyone know that my court date is coming up in December, basically right at the edge of the 10-month mark that would otherwise see a section 11b. I appreciate all the feedback I've been provided and have some additional questions and comments.
Update:
At this point I believe an application (eg stay of proceedings) is my best course of action - in this case, on the grounds that my ability to defend myself was compromised by the manner in which I was notified. Considering I had evidence I believe disproved the claims and considering the damages from the charge - there are none - I think this is appropriate. To that end, I am interested in jurisprudence on delays of notification affecting evidence and defense (eg, a police officer pulling me over on the spot vs getting a letter six weeks later by regular mail), as well as jurisprudence on stopping distances from intersections. If anyone has any information, advice, or input on this please let me know.
My apologies for the length but I like to be thorough, just like the courts expect…
(tl;dr)/summary: (1) Right turns on a red light are legal in Ontario unless otherwise signed. (https://www.ontario.ca/document/officia ... #section-2) Does anyone know where in the OHTA it mentions this?
(2) Im going to investigate any possible recourse via the service date information mentioned by ShrekTek.
(3) There appears to be no actual numerical limits on the stopped distance from red traffic control lights or stop signs, whether marked or unmarked. Does anyone know of any jurisprudence establishing any?
(4) It has been mentioned the speed could have been the other vehicle proceeding through the intersection. Does anyone know of any information or jurisprudence on the occurrence of this?
(5) The Red Light Camera System was certified as working, so (likely discovery) will provide this (or not). If I am not provided this (nor through disclosure, meaning the crown doesnt have it/cant use it either), I intend to challenge them to prove this.
(6) One of the important features of the law is "coming to a complete stop" and "proceeding when safe." For one, I absolutely stopped, whether or not in such a way I didnt trip the camera system: I have my own dashcam, and if I had better notification I could have provided that evidence, whether or not it assisted me. Therefore, I believe they have seriously impacted my ability to mount a defense. As well, and from the pictures, the "proceeding when safe" part is obviously fulfilled. Any comments on this approach are very welcome.
Detailed Reply The first thing, thank you ShrekTek for a fairly significant and thorough reply. Indeed, unless signed otherwise, making a right on a red line is completely legal in Ontario provided you come to a full stop and proceed when the way is clear – I am having trouble finding clarification of this in the OHTA, but Ontarios own website mentions this (https://www.ontario.ca/document/officia ... #section-2). If anyone can provide citation from the OHTA that would be great, because Id love the exact wording.
I also never considered the aspect of the service date and that's something else I'm definitely going to look into. I have a severe problem with the manner in which I was served of this notice, because as I mentioned, I have a dashcam. I absolutely came to a stop at that intersection (see explanation below), and if I had been given a timely notification - as what happens when a real person pulls you over on the spot - I would be able to properly mount a defense for myself. I believe the method of service in this matter has taken that away from me, especially since because it was 3pm in the afternoon I wouldn't even see a 'flash.'
And while we're at it, while this is an absolute liability as highwaystar mentioned, the application of laws in general is always done with both the spirit as well as the letter so that we don't over-litigate. eg, there is clearly no traffic, I did stop and could've proved it, and no one was hurt or otherwise suffered as a result. I would think the bigger goal of this system is to target people who are clearly demonstrating dangerous behaviour, so I do believe there is significant reason and justification in my concerns here.
As well, thanks for providing some info for the red light camera system, this is going to be something I will need, because I am also interested in the metrics of how and what the cameras use to measure your speed. I had stopped somewhat short of the white line there for my own purposes - namely to let somebody off. Therefore, I'm interested in exactly how close to the white line the sensors would be active, because as far as legislation, the OHTA:
136(1)(a) shall stop his or her vehicle or street car at a marked stop line or, if none, then immediately before entering the nearest crosswalk or, if none, then immediately before entering the intersection; and Also, from earlier in the section ShrekTek mentions:
144(5)(a,b,c)
Where to stop – intersection
(5) A driver who is directed by a traffic control signal erected at an intersection to stop his or her vehicle shall stop,
(a) at the sign or roadway marking indicating where the stop is to be made;
(b) if there is no sign or marking, immediately before entering the nearest crosswalk; or
(c) if there is no sign, marking or crosswalk, immediately before entering the intersection. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 144 (5); 2006, c. 19, Sched. T, s. 6 (1).
I would like to point out use of the words "at a marked stop line" or otherwise "immediately before the crosswalk or intersection. Despite the certainty of an "absolute" liability, this leaves interpretation of this, in my opinion, as a big grey area. What exactly is "immediately?" 3mm? 30cm? 3m? Before ruling out the latter, or larger distances, consider that I regularly see many cars stopped for red lights at that distance or greater, and this particular intersection is right near a bus stop which is some ways back. That bus regularly, after picking up its riders, will then proceed straight forward and make a right without stopping a second time – so how many TTC vehicles have been slapped with this charge? Currently Im spending time putting together videographic evidence of this on the same dashcam that I now never empty unless Ive stored the files somewhere. Thanks Ontario.
Does anyone know of any jurisprudence establishing the minimum/maximum stopping distances from indicated lines for red lights (or stop signs)? Thank you everyone for your explanations of the content of the letter. I now understand the "30km/h" speed indicated on it to be the speed of my vehicle when the first picture was taken. I have noticed a few people mention that it could have been the speed of the other vehicle moving through the intersection – is there any jurisprudence or existing information on that occurring?
Finally, highwaystar, I think youve misunderstood because I am not wayners wife and that picture does not show her vehicle. I also already mentioned I asked for an early resolution meeting but was given a court date instead (clearly) – from memory I remember not having to do this after a court date, has that changed (eg, do I request it now)?
Given the other statements Ive made here, Im not particularly interested in folding and just paying the ticket, because I dont think its appropriate. At this point, Im a fan of sticking up for myself. If it comes down to it, from what Ive read, I expect to get a reduced fine, so I look at that as my ‘worst case.
Without getting into the "ideological" aspects of this because they are completely useless in this endeavour, the RLCS was instituted based on an estimate of subsidization due to the revenue stream it would generate – a revenue stream that does not decrease as time goes on, as one would expect if this system was actually intended to curb the behaviour rather than just tax it. In other words, they do not expect fewer people to cut red lights from deterrence or hard knocks. Therefore, calling it a "safety device" as they do is absolutely appalling since it does nothing to, by very definition, increase safety.
I will continue to check this and keep everyone updated.
Cheers,
AnyyVen