“Internet Has It's Dis-advantages”

[RESPONSE FROM LAST TWO STATEMENTS]

Hello Moderator ...

It seems we have gotten off track re:governors

Apparantly increasing the speed limit on atleast ALL 400 series of roads in Ontario is a good idea - is that correct?

I beg to differ in that not all 400 series roads are designed for an increase of high speed.

Living in south-eastern Ontario MTO has made created a 'monster' - from expanding the two lane roads to four lanes thus increasing the flow of traffic and speed ... only problem is ... it has left a 'bottleneck' as the construction is not finished and that is why there are so many accidents between Toronto and Montreal ... people become speed demons to make up time from the slowing of traffic with only two lanes - make sense?

To end the discussion on governors I was attempting to find a solution to the lane changing speeders, to which I feel needs to be 're-evaluated' in regard to consequences. That's it!

Really liked this idea [may I add stiffer consequences for repeat offenders]

What should've been done all along: Upgrade the curriculum of the driving schools, make it mandatory to attend a real driving school (not some of these fly-by-night operations that teach diddly-squat), and require people to re-validate their licence every five or ten years (at least with a written test).

Being raised close to Qubec I would have to disagree with your views on drivers in Quebec. Maybe it's because they love to drive fast - which is fine if you know your vehicle and how to use it.

Quebec drivers are 'usually' in the hammer lane [passing lane]

Signal Lights - seem to be optional ANYWHERE in Quebec

Passing vehicle on highway with no traffic ahead, slids over as quick as possible with no signalling where there are 40 car lengths of space in front of the vehicle their passing - joke.

In regard to driving in the Toronto area I found drivers LOVE to speed and I have rarely seen enforcement on the road or parked along the side of the road or on a overpass [to unsafe with speeding traffic I guess]

Experience has taught me that being kind and waiving someone into traffic is taken for granted and seem to come across agressive [maybe because they can't drive fast enough to get where they're going] Maybe it's what happens to people when they drive in larger cities.. who knows.

Increasing the speed might help with the flow of traffic .. but only in four lanes NOT two.

As I had said before ... I am not a retired officer or MTO worker - just an average taxpayer with curiousities.

How have we gotten off track? You've asserted that governor's are a good idea, a couple of us have disagreed with and presented arguments to support our belief's, and now suddenly we're off track?

The point that has been presented is simply this - governing the speed of everyone on the road will not reduce the number of accidents on the road, quite the contrary, as higher speed limits in other countries prove that faster speeds equal less accidents.

Nor, as far as I can tell, is anyone asserting that increasing the speed limit on all 400 series highways is a good idea. The 407 was mentioned, as it is currently the "most freely moving" highway in Ontario with relatively low construction on it. I personally believe lower speeds in construction zones is a good idea, as the road may have unusual obstructions or deviations the require more effort to navigate.

You want to stop lane changing speeders from weaving through traffic? Then enforce the laws that require slower moving vehicles to keep to the right, so people that feel more comfortable travelling faster, can travel faster without obstruction.

I also disagree with your statement that drivers in Toronto love to drive fast, I've found the opposite to be true, the majority of people on the GTA's express ways and city streets seem content to dawdle along 10-20 km/h below the speed limit.

And hey, I don't deny the government has made a total mess of Ontario roadways, I completely agree with you on that. But installing governor's everyone's car isn't the most effective solution to mitigate the problems most commonly faced on the roads today.

Lo and behold, I'm an average tax paying citizen too!

manwithaplan wrote:The point that has been presented is simply this - governing the speed of everyone on the road will not reduce the number of accidents on the road, quite the contrary, as higher speed limits in other countries prove that faster speeds equal less accidents.

however, from the posts I have read, those other countries have way higher standards in even obtaining a licence and the penalties for violations are severe.

I have been biting my tongue reading this whole thread, some is true, some is so far fetched thoughts. If only I could put people in my shoes for a few hours, would have a whole different perspective on this stuff:

- responding to a blocked hwy, lights on at 65km/hr, safe speed to ensure I get there, can tell it is snow packed and ice, in a 100zone, having others come up behind me at 90, 100 + km/hr, some weave to try and pass

- white outs, again hwy blocked 20km/hr, lights on, visibility zero, I get passed by vehicles at 60km/hr +

- I am closing the hwy b/c it is blocked, flares blocking left shoulder, flares across left lane, cruiser x-ways on right lane to force people onto off ramp to leave hwy, only to have drivers go on past cruiser on ramp and return back onto hwy This is until I get the last set of flares out, blocking the right lane, then reposition the cruiser on hwy.....and some drivers stop, some get out and ask "is the highway closed" others drive thru the flares and ask the same thing

Oh, this is just the tip of the iceberg of things I see, which all relates to speed and driver's not giving themselves enough time to travel to their destination.

Not only govenors, but add in sensors 360 for follow too close and safe lane changes

"manwithaplan" pretty much covered everything I was going to say before I could jump in.

manwithaplan wrote:I also disagree with your statement that drivers in Toronto love to drive fast, I've found the opposite to be true, the majority of people on the GTA's express ways and city streets seem content to dawdle along 10-20 km/h below the speed limit.

Well... there's a wide range... but the ones going 10-20 under are also usually the ones who make right turns from the left lane and do other weird maneouvres. I love the ones who have a completely clear road, and wait until you're 10 feet from them, then they pull out and drive 20-30 under the limit.

hwybear wrote:however, from the posts I have read, those other countries have way higher standards in even obtaining a licence and the penalties for violations are severe.

Which is why we were saying that the driving standards here should be improved... as well as everything that you mentioned as far as people driving like idiots.

etcheffects wrote:To end the discussion on governors I was attempting to find a solution to the lane changing speeders, to which I feel needs to be 're-evaluated' in regard to consequences. That's it!

In the end, we both have our perspectives on what should be done to improve traffic safety. This discussion board is here (partly) to exchange ideas about them. If we don't agree, there's no harm in that.

hwybear wrote:

manwithaplan wrote:The point that has been presented is simply this - governing the speed of everyone on the road will not reduce the number of accidents on the road, quite the contrary, as higher speed limits in other countries prove that faster speeds equal less accidents.

however, from the posts I have read, those other countries have way higher standards in even obtaining a licence and the penalties for violations are severe.

I have been biting my tongue reading this whole thread, some is true, some is so far fetched thoughts. If only I could put people in my shoes for a few hours, would have a whole different perspective on this stuff:

- responding to a blocked hwy, lights on at 65km/hr, safe speed to ensure I get there, can tell it is snow packed and ice, in a 100zone, having others come up behind me at 90, 100 + km/hr, some weave to try and pass

- white outs, again hwy blocked 20km/hr, lights on, visibility zero, I get passed by vehicles at 60km/hr +

- I am closing the hwy b/c it is blocked, flares blocking left shoulder, flares across left lane, cruiser x-ways on right lane to force people onto off ramp to leave hwy, only to have drivers go on past cruiser on ramp and return back onto hwy This is until I get the last set of flares out, blocking the right lane, then reposition the cruiser on hwy.....and some drivers stop, some get out and ask "is the highway closed" others drive thru the flares and ask the same thing

Oh, this is just the tip of the iceberg of things I see, which all relates to speed and driver's not giving themselves enough time to travel to their destination.

Not only govenors, but add in sensors 360 for follow too close and safe lane changes

My bad, I should of made my meaning clearer.

What I said was more geared towards normal driving conditions on a express way. As far as I know (and you can correct me if I'm wrong) there's a ticket you can give for "not driving according to road conditions" or something similar, which regardless of the speed limit, would still come into effect in the hazardous conditions. You'd think of it of common sense, but a lot of people new to Canada (and some that have simply never driven before) are ignorant to the dangers of excess speed in poor conditions, which is why some of us have been advocating that better driver education would do a lot more than speed governors. And if we did put in speed governors to limit peoples speed to 100 km/h or 110 km/h, it wouldn't of made a difference in most of the situations you described. Not to undermine your experience as a LEO, but to me it seems that if people paid more attention to the road, some of your described situations would happen less. We need to treat distracted driving the same as drinking and driving. Just my opinion though, and not a can of worms we should open in this thread.

The same situations happen on city streets as well, which as has already been pointed the governors wouldn't affect either, unless you govern everyone's vehicle to 50 km/h or something similar, which would be ridiculous. You always get people pushing the limit intentionally, but better driver education would help people ignorant to the different conditions drive in them better, or at least teach them how to respond when losing control of their car.

Which is why we were saying that the driving standards here should be improved... as well as everything that you mentioned as far as people driving like idiots.

Hwybear, do you not agree that if we had higher licencing standards more severe penalties here, things would not be better? As it stands, in Ontario our licencing issuer is privatized, and they don't make money by denying people licences (my assertion).

Let me ask you this, in your honest opinion, since the stunt driving law was imposed (much stiffer penalties like impounded car, high fines, suspension etc) have you or your colleagues noticed a decrease in people travelling in excess of 50 km/h over the limit? If you haven't noticed a decrease, what other factors (if any) have been involved in this type of situation?

Well... there's a wide range... but the ones going 10-20 under are also usually the ones who make right turns from the left lane and do other weird maneouvres. I love the ones who have a completely clear road, and wait until you're 10 feet from them, then they pull out and drive 20-30 under the limit.

What gets me is when they pull out in front of you when there's no cars behind you. That being said, it doesn't bother too much if some one comes close to cutting me off, but then accelerates up to speed quickly. Like you pointed out, it's when they're in a big hurry to pull out into the road, then take their sweet arse time accelerating. Infuriatingly nonsensical, to say the least.

manwithaplan wrote:. You'd think of it of common sense, but a lot of people new to Canada (and some that have simply never driven before) are ignorant to the dangers of excess speed in poor conditions, which is why some of us have been advocating that better driver education would do a lot more than speed governors.

I would not blame new citizens of Canada. I simply blame "bad drivers".

Overall, there are multiple factors that attribute to this problem in poor weather:

- speed

- road surface

- vehicle equipment (tires, wipers, clean windows, washer fluid, lights, brakes etc.)

- driving experience in these conditions

- eye lead

- not over-driving what you can see

- follow too close to stop safely (well that is in every condition)

- give more time to reach a destination

manwithaplan wrote:. Hwybear, do you not agree that if we had higher licencing standards more severe penalties here, things would not be better?

I think it would help. That would hopefully cut down on the following too close, merge problems, keep right except passing, using signals, not waiting to last minute to get off hwy and cutting over 2 other lanes, shoulder drivers etc...

manwithaplan wrote:.

Let me ask you this, in your honest opinion, since the stunt driving law was imposed (much stiffer penalties like impounded car, high fines, suspension etc) have you or your colleagues noticed a decrease in people travelling in excess of 50 km/h over the limit? If you haven't noticed a decrease, what other factors (if any) have been involved in this type of situation?

I have seen a huge decrease in "high speeds". The last one that had occassion to get my attention was in August (5 months ago), prior to the change, I would see 1-3 per week.

Hwybear ...

Was curious as to why MTO had decided that it would be the OPP to patrol the highways - why doesn't MTO monitor the roads and have LEO as 'backup' should anything get out of control.

When I was driving truck you could see them patrolling and pulling over trucks that were obviously breaking the law [passing ALL other trucks, unsecured loads-straps flapping,bald/worn/loose tires on trailers,etc..]

Would it not make more sense for MTO to be monitoring the highways - 'their' roads, and let the LEO's monitor all of the other roads?

manwithaplan wrote:

If anything, they should raise the limit on the 407. One other statistic: Raising the speed limit has been shown to cause a marked drop in the 99th percentile speed. That means that the people who were going the absolute fastest... actually slowed down.

I'm of the opinion that the unspoken speed limit on the 407 is 150 km/h, as I've done upwards of 130-140 km/h past cops (who I can see pointing the radar gun at oncoming traffic), and not gotten pulled over. I suspect that they probably catch people doing 50+ over the limit, then reduce the charge to 49 over to get them to pay the ticket instead of fighting it, though I have seen tow trucks included in traffic stops on a couple occasions.

i've had friends pulled over allegedly doing 138 and got it reduced 120 roadside ... almost every traffic stop i see on the 407 comes with included with two cruisers (one supervisor) + tow truck

407 detachment always situate themselves in the SAME place EVERYTIME, so it's just a matter of slowing down in those sections

go into enforced section (EB 407@Keele) ... start braking ... see black&white ... increase braking ... folks behind me, go WTF ... overtake me at 160 ... see the B&W but too late ... say hello to the 172 ... LOL

i agree there should be new legislation for the 407 where they have higher limit but also adjusted fines/demerit points so doing 121 in a 120 zone is the equivalent of doing 121 in a 100 zone ... something like that ... i can see a higher limit being an excuse to drive 170, which is definitely not something i want. i wouldn't feel safe whatsoever if 170 was required for the stunt-tow; we'd have all the 16-17 yr olds killing themselves and ruining it for the rest of us

etcheffects wrote:Hwybear ...

Was curious as to why MTO had decided that it would be the OPP to patrol the highways - why doesn't MTO monitor the roads and have LEO as 'backup' should anything get out of control.

When I was driving truck you could see them patrolling and pulling over trucks that were obviously breaking the law [passing ALL other trucks, unsecured loads-straps flapping,bald/worn/loose tires on trailers,etc..]

Would it not make more sense for MTO to be monitoring the highways - 'their' roads, and let the LEO's monitor all of the other roads?

MTO officers are best described (with no disrespect intended) as truck officers. Their enforcement goal is commercial vehicles, and not general HTA/criminal enforcement. Since they're Provincial enforcement officers, their authorities are somewhat less then that of a regular police officer, limiting their scope and powers.

While I guess legislative changes could be made to expand their authorities, it wouldn't make much sense. You'd have to hire a lot more MTO officers, and spend a fair bit more training them all. At the end of the day, you'd simply be paying the MTO to do the same job the OPP are already doing. In essence you'd just be paying to switch the patch on the sleeve of the uniform.

hwybear wrote:

I would not blame new citizens of Canada. I simply blame "bad drivers".

Overall, there are multiple factors that attribute to this problem in poor weather:

- speed

- road surface

- vehicle equipment (tires, wipers, clean windows, washer fluid, lights, brakes etc.)

- driving experience in these conditions

- eye lead

- not over-driving what you can see

- follow too close to stop safely (well that is in every condition)

- give more time to reach a destination

I'm not blaming new citizens per se, just pointing out that there are a lot of people ignorant of safe driving procedure for one reason or another. Better regulated driver education would have better potential to address all or most of the issues you listed, where as speed governors would generally only solve one of the issues you listed, and even still, only on freeways, not smaller roads with lower speed limits.

hwybear wrote:

I think it would help. That would hopefully cut down on the following too close, merge problems, keep right except passing, using signals, not waiting to last minute to get off hwy and cutting over 2 other lanes, shoulder drivers etc...

hwybear wrote:

I have seen a huge decrease in "high speeds". The last one that had occassion to get my attention was in August (5 months ago), prior to the change, I would see 1-3 per week.

I think that's what Radar Identified was getting at when he mentioned about the much stricter laws over in Europe. They do help a good deal, like with our new stunt driving law.

Only on roads like the autobahn, instead of enforcing speeds with extreme convictions, they enforce several other rules of the road in a similar method to our stunt law, to the end that it makes driving overall safer despite the notoriously high speeds. Imagine if you guys started enforcing tailgating with a similar law in Ontario, wouldn't history show that people would be more wary of tailgating, the same way you've illustrated they've become less apt to travel at 50 km/ over the speed limit?

Just food for thought, when I get a chance I'm going to look further into what it's like over there, as far as driving regulations and education is concerned.

ifly55 wrote:manwithaplan i've been pulled over on the 407 doing 147 but for occupational reasons was let off with a warning, [LEO] points to hand-held radar reading 147 and says "please don't do this"

i've had friends pulled over allegedly doing 138 and got it reduced 120 roadside ... almost every traffic stop i see on the 407 comes with included with two cruisers (one supervisor) + tow truck

407 detachment always situate themselves in the SAME place EVERYTIME, so it's just a matter of slowing down in those sections

go into enforced section (EB 407@Keele) ... start braking ... see black&white ... increase braking ... folks behind me, go WTF ... overtake me at 160 ... see the B&W but too late ... say hello to the 172 ... LOL

i agree there should be new legislation for the 407 where they have higher limit but also adjusted fines/demerit points so doing 121 in a 120 zone is the equivalent of doing 121 in a 100 zone ... something like that ... i can see a higher limit being an excuse to drive 170, which is definitely not something i want. i wouldn't feel safe whatsoever if 170 was required for the stunt-tow; we'd have all the 16-17 yr olds killing themselves and ruining it for the rest of us

Really, eh? What time of day was it? I'm usually on the 407 during business hours Monday to Friday. Maybe the OPP has more high speed targets to choose from at those times. I know about the bottom of the hill at keele, I usually boot up the hill, then move to the right and let the incline slow me down while the cars behind me continue flying over the hill . I see them eb and wb around Dufferin/Bathurst a lot too, sitting under the overpasses.

With regards to the MTO, after going through a truck driving school I've learned that with regards to commercial vehicles there are a ridiculous amount of extra laws and regulations, so it would be difficult for the MTO to enforce all those law and regulations on top of having to enforce a different set of laws and regulations on the general public, and vice versa with the OPP. If you think about it, MTO enforces the commercial laws on the freeways the same way Toronto by law officers enforces the commercial laws in the city.