“Internet Has It's Dis-advantages”

In regard to speeding [speed traps] anyone can go to this website and find out where the speed traps are.

Who runs this website - and aren't they breaking the law

Ontario - Browse Speed Traps by City

With the results that I had found in 10 minutes with Google ... I would imagine that either there are websites for Police Road Checks or people who are affected [drinkers] must text with their cell should they come across one.

What is this world coming too?

It's not illegal to publish the location of such activities, though I notice many sites/services draw the line at identifying RIDE checkpoints.

I'd actually argue motorists being aware of speed traps is a good thing. At the end of the day compliance is the goal, not charges. If people know/suspect there's a speed trap in a certain area, they'll tend to slow down, regardless if police are present or not.

there are plenty of other sites too: http://trapster.com/rl/Trapster.php

i believe there is even an app, so if you have a mount for your iPhone ... voila, you have some locations

and it appears LEO like Stanton and others share the same view: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNQhNz-ZQZ4

Well it's obvious that it is known, although if people see that there are no police at the noted spot, they can easily pass this info off by text/call from cell and with speed comes consequence.

Would it not be easier [cheaper] to have 'unmanned*' OPP vehicle parked with radar on all the time that is monitored by a cruiser in the area? *[Did not want to offend any female constables - unsure on how to word]

I believe as a abstainer of alcohol and having young adults [teenagers] who are anxious to learn to drive, it would be nice to know that these 'individuals' who decide to drink and drive or speed race on roads were more monitored and are rewarded with severe consequences.

It's a whole other ball game, but just to make a note, it's unfortunate that car/truck/motorcycle manufacturers aren't monitored closer with setting the speedometers with governors.

Having had driven truck before my misfortune I didn't have an issue with my truck being governed not to speed over 110km/hr , although it was clear to see and calculate the speed of alot of the other vehicles in the 'hammer lane' passing me on the 401 and other highways.

One other note I wanted to add ... I believe if there were more unmarked vehicles** [ newer small car and pickup truck vehicles ] just cruising along with the traffic it would be alot easier to pick out and pull over these speed demons who just have to see how fast this new vehicle will go - sound about right?

** I notice down in the Maritimes the RCMP use cars and suburban's [4x4]

Stanton wrote:At the end of the day compliance is the goal, not charges. If people know/suspect there's a speed trap in a certain area, they'll tend to slow down, regardless if police are present or not.

I agree with this, to a certain extent. If you are convicted enough times, they will take your license away for lack of compliance. However, if they just wanted everyone to drive at the speed limit, why not be more open about enforcement? Police often choose to hide behind bushes, overpasses, driveways, etc so that drivers do not have a chance to correct their mistake (exceeding the speed limit) until it is too late. Active patrolling would cause most people to be more compliant, but of course is not nearly as profitable. We all know that most speed limits in this province are set too low and that the government likely refuses to correct them due to the revenues generated by speeding taxes. I also think that traffic police would be more respected were this the case, because as of now they have been relegated to mere tax collectors.

Another motivation for drivers to avoid getting a ticket by knowing the location of a trap is insurance: legalized theft which will jump at any opportunity to take more money away. A $100 ticket can cause hundreds more in premium increases.

Personally, I commend the people who contribute to those speed trap websites. I don't have any need for them as I always drive at the exact limit now (not for safety, but to avoid the tax and prove a point that I have become obstructive by doing so). This is just one way for the citizens to fight back against the immoral actions of the government. Perhaps one day I will be able to drive at safe speeds again (aka, with the flow of traffic).

I remember in elementary school, around grade 4-5, the cops set up a program with our school, where they pulled over the speeders, and then had the little kids (us) write the warnings and hand them to the speeders, emphasizing the fact that they could of killed us by speeding (as there had been a couple of fatal car vs pedestrian accidents at the time, that us kids had witnessed from the playground). They featured it on the news stations as well. The cops put markers on the road, and even had us kids timing the cars to prove how fast they were going. The speed limit was 50 km/h along this stretch of Victoria Park Ave.

Despite being young at the time, I remember still one incident, where the cops attempted to stop traffic to pull over a car, where another vehicle was bombing down the fast lane doing 90 (in a 50). Copper had to jump out of the way of the van, as the van screeched to a halt. Most of the motorists were lucky the kids were just issuing warnings, or they'd be receiving steep tickets. This was back in the mid to late 90's.

This discussion reminds me of some news articles recently describing events in Alberta, were certain people were tweeting the locations of ride checks, and claiming it's free will, etc. whereas others were convinced they were letting drunk drivers who could potentially kill people escape justice.

Where do you draw the line?

Sadly I have to agree with EphOph .... in that the government will NOT 'enforce' vehicle manufacturers to put governors on the assembly line.

Sadly the government is making too much money with 'human nature' in that 'some' people are sold on the commercials of the responsiveness of these new vehicles.

I believe if the government did the right thing by having ALL non-emergency vehicles equipped with a speed governor and to REPAINT ALL LINES ON ROAD WITH REFLECTIVE PAINT would make a BIG change in speeding, and accidents.

Traffic seems to 'flow' alot better when 'everyone' is limited to their speed - the Canadian Government needs to step up to the plate and make changes NOW

Anyone disagree

I disagree.

Speed governors do not make drivers pay attention. They do not make drivers stop for traffic signals, pedestrians, stop signs, etc. They do not force drivers to wait in their lane until it is safe to pass, instead of pulling out with a truck barrelling at them. They do not make people slow down in slippery conditions. They don't make people drive sober. Most fatal collisions happen at speeds under 100 km/h. The safest roads in the province are the 400-Series Highways, which have the highest speeds. Actually the fastest road in the province, the 407, also has the lowest fatality rate. The German Autobahn, which has no posted speed limit in many sections, has a lower fatality rate than its Canadian counterparts. If speed itself was so dangerous, the German Autobahn would be the most dangerous road network on the planet. I don't see how speed governors would provide any significant benefit.

The government should do the right thing by requiring proper driver education, and making it harder to get a licence... but that would require too much thinking on their part.

Unless I'm reading your statement wrong, it sounds as if SPEED is GOOD?

I am very familiar with the 400 highway series of roads, as I had driven on them daily when driving truck

If speed governors aren't the answer to slow vehicles down WHAT IS?

Maybe we should take down ALL speed signs on highways and see what happens ... I can only imagine the outcome in the larger cities.

I agree that governors don't help the driver operate the vehicle in a safe manner, but then again, obviously speed is an issue in Ontario anyway - maybe not Quebec as anything seems to go in that province [ex: speeding/improper lane changing/no signalling] - I've seen alot of it driving truck.

I feel ALOT of changes are in order .... speed governors [less accidents/less fuel consumption/safer driving for 'new' drivers and the elderly on the road. I agree with 'better' training for new drivers but I don't agree with making it harder to get a license - unless your talking about drivers with a bad driving history [drinking & driving, excessive speeding, accidents ] then yes - ALOT stiffer rules/laws.

There are some other issues with drivers from other countries who come to Canada [bad habits] I've seen them!

You could still get a stunt driving charge with even a 100km/h speed governor on city streets. I agree with Radar Identified. He's not saying that speed is good, he's saying that bad drivers are dangerous regardless of their speed. The autobahn is safe because people are focusing on the road and driving safely, not watching their speedometers and/or keeping an eye out for speed traps. Also, other laws (which are actually based on safety) such as allowing faster vehicles to pass are heavily enforced.

I think speed limits should not be absolute; in bad weather the speed limit may be too fast for conditions. However the logistics of managing something like that would probably be far too much for the police and government to handle. Although, I do believe (correct me if I'm wrong) that you can still receive a ticket for driving too fast for conditions even if your speed is at or under the limit.

Well you make some interesting points although.........

I realize that someone could still get a stunt driving charge with even a 100km/h speed governor on city streets, that's seems pretty obvious - it was controlling the 'flow of traffic' [speed] on the highway where the use of governors I beleive would make a definite positive outcome ... less accidents ... less need for police patrolling = $ saved

In regard to the statement

Again I too agree - but it's controlling the 'flow of traffic' with governors to put and end to reckless dangerous driving from some idiot who is probably drunk that I am concerned about.

Anyone who abuses their privilege not right of having a license and decides to speed excessively weaving in and out of lanes with no concern for anyone else should be dealt with alot more stiffer than now, as obviously it's not working - we unfortunately still have these drivers on our roads.

One in particular driver(s) come to mind ... 'some' owners of 4x4 vehicles seem to think they can bypass all slow traffic in a winter storm - go anywhere ... but sadly find out that when you drive on hard packed snow can be like driving on ice - your vehicle becomes a hockey puck ... no control > accident waiting to happen.

If putting governors on vehicles are such a bad idea why did they enforce them on ALL commercial trucks?

Was it because of a fatality from the wheel flying off a tractor-trailer that all trucks had to have governors installed?

What will it take for everyone who to admit that the current system needs revamping - where to start??

Regarding this statement

Although, I do believe (correct me if I'm wrong) that you can still receive a ticket for driving too fast for conditions even if your speed is at or under the limit.

I guess this would depend on weather conditions, flow of traffic, and common sense which I have found as driving both commercial trucks and my own vehicles not everyone has. One example of using 'common sense' is making sure you have your lights on when driving in bad weather and/or your 4way flashers alerting other drivers that you are travelling at alot slower speed. Same reason farm tractors must have a slow moving triangle sign on the rear of their tractors when on secondary roads and lights and mirrors depending on the circumstance.

I'm not familiar with all of the laws of MTO, but having driven since I was 16 and almost at the golden age of 50 I have seen alot of changes.

etcheffects wrote:Well you make some interesting points although.........

I realize that someone could still get a stunt driving charge with even a 100km/h speed governor on city streets, that's seems pretty obvious - it was controlling the 'flow of traffic' [speed] on the highway where the use of governors I beleive would make a definite positive outcome ... less accidents ... less need for police patrolling = $ saved

In regard to the statement

He's not saying that speed is good, he's saying that bad drivers are dangerous regardless of their speed.

Again I too agree - but it's controlling the 'flow of traffic' with governors to put and end to reckless dangerous driving from some idiot who is probably drunk that I am concerned about.

Anyone who abuses their privilege not right of having a license and decides to speed excessively weaving in and out of lanes with no concern for anyone else should be dealt with alot more stiffer than now, as obviously it's not working - we unfortunately still have these drivers on our roads.

One in particular driver(s) come to mind ... 'some' owners of 4x4 vehicles seem to think they can bypass all slow traffic in a winter storm - go anywhere ... but sadly find out that when you drive on hard packed snow can be like driving on ice - your vehicle becomes a hockey puck ... no control > accident waiting to happen.

Just wanted to make a point - if people followed the other rules of the road and slower moving vehicles stayed to the right instead of clogging up the left most lanes, it would eliminate the need for faster moving vehicles to have to weave in and out of traffic. If say you are doing 120 km/h in the fast lane of the 401, and a car approaches fast from behind you, you must move over when it's safe to do so. I've had friends in this situation who claim they shouldn't have to move over, since the other car is speeding and breaking the law. But, even though the are breaking the law, it does not allow you to break the law as well by failing to yield right of way.

Like someone else mentioned, look at the 407. it's the fastest highway in Ontario, with hardly any accidents happening (I've been on this highway almost every day for the last three years, and can count on one hand the number of accidents I've seen, most of which where when it was snowing). And guess what, people (90% of the time) keep to the right! The left lane is almost always wide open for faster cars.

If putting governors on vehicles are such a bad idea why did they enforce them on ALL commercial trucks?

Was it because of a fatality from the wheel flying off a tractor-trailer that all trucks had to have governors installed?

I don't think it was because of that, even now with the governors installed, wheels are still flying off trucks and killing people. I think it had more to do with trucks taking longer to stop from faster speeds than cars do.

What will it take for everyone who to admit that the current system needs revamping - where to start??

Regarding this statement

Although, I do believe (correct me if I'm wrong) that you can still receive a ticket for driving too fast for conditions even if your speed is at or under the limit.

I guess this would depend on weather conditions, flow of traffic, and common sense which I have found as driving both commercial trucks and my own vehicles not everyone has. One example of using 'common sense' is making sure you have your lights on when driving in bad weather and/or your 4way flashers alerting other drivers that you are travelling at alot slower speed. Same reason farm tractors must have a slow moving triangle sign on the rear of their tractors when on secondary roads and lights and mirrors depending on the circumstance.

No argument here. I'll even turn my lights on if there is simply heavy cloud cover.

To add to someone else's point about people bringing their bad habits with them from their respective countries, I remember my instructor from my truck school telling us about a student he failed once, who kept trying to use the tractor trailer to force other cars out of his way so he could change lanes, etc. The instructor later learned that in that students home country, the bigger the vehicle you drive, the more right of way you have, and it was normal for people there to use the size of their vehicle to intimidate and manoeuvre smaller vehicles out of the way. When they come to North America, they naturally drive the way they were taught and are used to.

Your last statement about the bad habits from other countries is so true, as I have seen their maneuvering in traffic and have often thought just where did they get there license??

Whether it's a tractor-trailer or a taxi they seem to think it's OK to continue with their bad habits - until they end up driving in weather they're not familiar with - snow & ice

I'm not saying it's ALL & ONLY immigrants, I'm sure there are ALOT of other 'bad habit' drivers out there.

Maybe MTO could have these drivers go back in for another written and road test after 6 months of driving - probation license - similar to the stage program for new drivers. Should they have had any incidents while driving, then re-training should go into effect. As I said before ... it's a privilege to have a license - surprising how many people think otherwise.

Q? Why isn't MTO not patrolling the highways and pulling over people who violate the rules of the road?

Why is it solely the OPP in Ontario that do this?

I remember MTO pulling trucks over when I was driving truck - often wondered about that

etcheffects wrote:If speed governors aren't the answer to slow vehicles down WHAT IS?

Why do we need to slow everyone down?

Speed governors would only have an effect on our fastest roads, which are already our safest. Our fatality rate is falling and it continues to fall. Other countries are raising their freeway/motorway limits and seeing their fatalities and collisions drop as well. The facts and statistics don't support the idea that our high-speed roads are becoming more dangerous. It may be emotionally upsetting to see some idiots weaving in and out - but they are only one type of driver that's higher risk. I don't see how speed governors address much more dangerous habits which are also more frequent and kill people more often. I don't see a big deal with someone going 150 in the middle of nowhere; but someone going 70 down a busy corridor with pedestrians, driveways, parked cars and hidden intersections everywhere is incredibly dangerous and won't be stopped by a speed governor. Hit a pedestrian at 45 km/h and they've only got a 50-50 chance of survival. At 65 km/h, it's a 10% chance of survival. Until high speeding becomes one of the top causes of fatalities in this province (despite the hype, it isn't - and it's becoming less frequent), I don't see a need for a blanket set of governors. As I said earlier, the overwhelming majority of fatal collisions happen at speeds below 100 km/h.

What should've been done all along: Upgrade the curriculum of the driving schools, make it mandatory to attend a real driving school (not some of these fly-by-night operations that teach diddly-squat), and require people to re-validate their licence every five or ten years (at least with a written test). I have to get tested every six months or I lose my job (different industry than driving but still...) so I'm very unsympathetic to the idea that people should get a "licence for life."

manwithaplan wrote:Like someone else mentioned, look at the 407. it's the fastest highway in Ontario, with hardly any accidents happening (I've been on this highway almost every day for the last three years, and can count on one hand the number of accidents I've seen, most of which where when it was snowing). And guess what, people (90% of the time) keep to the right! The left lane is almost always wide open for faster cars.

If anything, they should raise the limit on the 407. One other statistic: Raising the speed limit has been shown to cause a marked drop in the 99th percentile speed. That means that the people who were going the absolute fastest... actually slowed down.

Heck, I was on the German Autobahn as recently as this past summer. In the no-limit areas, I was going 160+. What was it like? Scary? Fun? Nope. CALM. It seemed like the "no limit" areas had the heaviest surveillance, looking for people passing on the right, tailgating, failing to move over. Still, the speeds were higher than we see here (the 407 can be close some times). Funny how it's safer on the Autobahn than on Canadian highways with 100 km/h limits. Improving our driving standards is the best way to improve safety, in my view, because I've seen the difference between driving here, and driving in places where they take driving much more seriously (Germany, Switzerland). People tailgate here all the time. Do it in Germany and you'll get up to a three month licence suspension. They also force vehicle owners to get routine safety inspections on their vehicle, with proof submitted to the government. (Go for a tune-up, you also need a government-approved safety inspection... I think it's at least every year.) That's being proactive.

etcheffects wrote:with governors to put and end to reckless dangerous driving from some idiot who is probably drunk

So if we did put in governors, what are you going to set the governed limit to? 100 km/h? 90? Those are still above the speed range where most fatal collisions happen. Most drunk drivers kill people on two-lane highways where they drift into oncoming traffic, or on surface streets where they blow through intersections and hit pedestrians or other cars. The ironic thing is that, a lot of the time, the drunk is actually going SLOWER than everyone else on the road. Telltale signs - going way slower than everyone else, unable to stay in their lane, braking late, brake lights activating for no reason, etc. If we're going to put some kind of gadget in there to control driver behaviour, maybe it should be an ignition interlock on all vehicles. (I'm not advocating that, but if we're going to have maximum effect, it should start there.)

I think we all want our roads to be safer, but we obviously disagree on how that is to be achieved.

One other thing... I used to live in Montreal. I'll drive there any day instead of Toronto. Montreal drivers are aggressive, but they're predictable. Toronto drivers range from being far more aggressive than anything you'll see in Montreal, to people who are so scared that you wonder how they got out of their home. I have no idea what a driver in the GTA is going to do until they actually do it. That's the main reason driving here is so bad.

etcheffects wrote:Your last statement about the bad habits from other countries is so true, as I have seen their maneuvering in traffic and have often thought just where did they get there license??

Whether it's a tractor-trailer or a taxi they seem to think it's OK to continue with their bad habits - until they end up driving in weather they're not familiar with - snow & ice

I'm not saying it's ALL & ONLY immigrants, I'm sure there are ALOT of other 'bad habit' drivers out there.

Maybe MTO could have these drivers go back in for another written and road test after 6 months of driving - probation license - similar to the stage program for new drivers. Should they have had any incidents while driving, then re-training should go into effect. As I said before ... it's a privilege to have a license - surprising how many people think otherwise.

Q? Why isn't MTO not patrolling the highways and pulling over people who violate the rules of the road?

Why is it solely the OPP in Ontario that do this?

I remember MTO pulling trucks over when I was driving truck - often wondered about that

You can test people as much as you want, but it won't matter if they know what to do to pass the test, then revert back to their normal habits during everyday life. Radar Identified is right in this regard, driving schools need to be regulated and mandatory. I grew up learning how to drive from my dad (who is a commercial driver), so I knew a lot more about the rules of the road and good habits when I got my licence than the average person probably does, however I went to driving school for the discount on my insurance. A neighbour of mine was an instructor at one of those shady schools, so I went there. I went to the first few in class sessions, and couldn't figure out why I was the only person there, until the guy that ran the school asked me why I kept showing up, then told me not to worry about coming to the rest of the classes, and he would sign off that I had completed the course. Then for the driving lessons they teach you what to do on the driving test itself.

Instead, they should be teaching good habits.

Instead of governors, they should make the ignition interlock system standard on all cars, that would save a lot more lives.

If anything, they should raise the limit on the 407. One other statistic: Raising the speed limit has been shown to cause a marked drop in the 99th percentile speed. That means that the people who were going the absolute fastest... actually slowed down.

I'm of the opinion that the unspoken speed limit on the 407 is 150 km/h, as I've done upwards of 130-140 km/h past cops (who I can see pointing the radar gun at oncoming traffic), and not gotten pulled over. I suspect that they probably catch people doing 50+ over the limit, then reduce the charge to 49 over to get them to pay the ticket instead of fighting it, though I have seen tow trucks included in traffic stops on a couple occasions.

One other thing... I used to live in Montreal. I'll drive there any day instead of Toronto. Montreal drivers are aggressive, but they're predictable. Toronto drivers range from being far more aggressive than anything you'll see in Montreal, to people who are so scared that you wonder how they got out of their home. I have no idea what a driver in the GTA is going to do until they actually do it. That's the main reason driving here is so bad.

No kidding. Friends and family laugh at me, but out of habit I usually drive with one hand over the horn any time I'm near another vehicle. More so in certain areas to the north and east of the city *cough*.