“When Officers Break The Law...”

Since I didn't wanna post the whole article, I left out the bit on paid duty.

Those fattened pay cheques do not include lucrative "paid duty," where off-duty officers, paid by private companies, earn $60 to $70 an hour to perform such duties as directing traffic around construction.

Actually I really hope that they were accident investigators. IME they're the most professional and community-oriented TPS members (even though guys that they put on division desks are usually pretty good too) so they'd deserve at least SOME extra cash in comparison to the base salaries.

'''I know what you are saying...am I disheartened when I work hard to put a case together to convict a speeding driver (like someone going 160 km/h) and it's tossed cause it took 12 months to get to court? Of course, wouldn't you be? Isn't society at large not happy by these occurences? Sure the driver's rights were maintained, but what about society's rights? The right to be safe on the roadway?'''

Yes I agree, what is the name name of the society of which you speak ?

You have to also remember that some peace officers actually abuse people and use their assumed power to arbitrarily detain people and assault them. This is not fiction it is fact... I agree that people should be protected in all situations......including the right to be protected from the abuse by those who are their servants.

The society of which I speak is called Canada.

All Canadians deserve the RIGHT to travel in safety. You should not be harmed going about your daily business because other chose to flaunt the laws leading to your injury or death.

I think all traffic fines should go to charity, that way once and for all people would stop thinking that traffic enforcement is about the city getting $$ (they don't control enforcement activities, well maybe bylaws)...

You say that some police officers abuse their authority? I agree 100%.

When I grew up we were taught to fear the police, and out of that fear came respect.

I know there is a perception that we are all a bunch of heavy handed thugs, funny though, complaints of excessive use of force by police make up less than 0.2 percent of complaints against police. Assaults against police are statistically at an all time high.

Again I'm not here to point fingers but to hear objectively what the solution is.

It's easy as an officer to be complacent, to trust everyone, not to do your job, dodge traffic enforcement, no go looking for drug deals late at night, not to be in control of situations, to just soak up the abuse day after day, treat everyone like they're Mr. Rogers or Stuart Smalley...

We all know officers like that, I can show you where some of their graves are.

Frankly, every call we go to is a gun call, every calm situation can get volatile in an instant...I've been to call where the abused wife calls 911 for help, you split them up and once you put the cuffs on him, she charges from the kitchen with a knife or a frying pan (the frying pan thing actually happened to me...not as funny as it sounds, there was hot oil in it.)

Good honest citizens would marvel at why we do things the way we do...I expect most of your are, cause being a bad driver or getting a few tickets doesn't make someone a criminal or a bad person.

When you see what we see insofar as criminal gangs teaching their members how to act sweet around police to get our guard down, to shmooze in order to gain a tactical advantage...how many officers have been killed by not seeing it coming?

I also understand people think police have to much power...so what's the solution? No police? More controls? My God we have more policies, legislation and rules than ever. Everybody and their dog has a video phone and news media of police impropriety on the other side of the planet can make the local news.

How would you do the job?

Yes we are armed, cause at any time our lives can be on the line.

I've heard comments that police have an unfair advantage...well "Hello! It's not a contest!" This is not a hockey fight. In the real world if you go down, the bad guy might finish you off, forever. So if we are arresting someone and they are turtling and laying on their arms, we can't assume he's just resisting...in an exercise at the police college, armed with a simunition (paintball gun), placed in that scenario, 24 of 27 officers who attempted to arrest that individual where shot first before they were able to react to realizing the accused was armed.

Tell Cst. Pham's widow he was one of those heavy handed cops...church going soccer coaching hero who's gun never made it out of the holster when he was struck in the neck by a high powered rifle round.

I've worked in this profession for 22 years, I've swear I've always felt I've been fair, but you hear too often how I wasn't. I reduce tickets and have the defendants come to court to fight the break? Makes you not want to give people breaks...especially when it happens often, but if you give someone a tickets then you should have given them a break...I used to write 72 hr notices, but too many times the next week they had the cars remoded back to illegal....

Think we are cynical?

Maybe you should stop wasting all your energy complaining about police and sign up, then you can speak from a perspective of enlightenment.

Again there are 29,000 police in Ontario, if you are saying we are all the same, then maybe it's cause we need to be to survive.

Yes, they pick aggressive assertive authoritarian types...what else would fit the job? We are mostly university / college educated, involved in our communities and trust me if we didn't care, there are others job that don't take you away from your family, friends and other loved ones every other weekend, too many nights to count and most Christmases and other holidays.

Have I met a few bad apples? Sure. But we have multiple levels of police complaints system and a court system to make sure people get a fair deal. But the 99.9% of the officers I've worked with care a lot more about you than you will ever care about them.

FyreStorm wrote:The society of which I speak is called Canada.

All Canadians deserve the RIGHT to travel in safety. You should not be harmed going about your daily business because other chose to flaunt the laws leading to your injury or death.

This is exactly my point we do have a RIGHT TO TRAVEL period. It is stated quite clearly in the Bill of Rights. Not Flaunting of laws applies to both public servants and to the people.

I think all traffic fines should go to charity, that way once and for all people would stop thinking that traffic enforcement is about the city getting $$ (they don't control enforcement activities, well maybe bylaws)...

Why do you think fines will solve the problems you mention? We probably differ with our opinions... as I tend to follow the Bill/Charter of RIGHTS insofar as we as people have a RIGHT to travel unhindered. Traffic court is a business that trades on the stock market as do the police depts. I could explain further but have been warned against posting the rights of the people that conflict with the HTA.

You say that some police officers abuse their authority? I agree 100%.

When I grew up we were taught to fear the police, and out of that fear came respect.

Actually where I grew up we were taught to look for a PEACE officer to help us and protect us...but that is no longer the case, due to the fact that police have now become policy enforcement officers instead of peace officers.

I know there is a perception that we are all a bunch of heavy handed thugs, funny though, complaints of excessive use of force by police make up less than 0.2 percent of complaints against police. Assaults against police are statistically at an all time high.

Yes funny that isn't it ? I wonder if the fact that the complaints dept is situated WITHIN the actual police station itself causes people to doubt its neutrality ? Also when people are faced with judges that often side with police officers no matter what, I doubt that places much faith in a system that is somewhat bias in favour of police officers.

I think all people should be civilly suing any cop who steps out of the line of duty (which is to serve and protect them) and if this happened each time they breached their oath, they would soon smarten up and realise that they have rules to follow and they have a duty to protect.

Again I'm not here to point fingers but to hear objectively what the solution is.

It's easy as an officer to be complacent, to trust everyone, not to do your job, dodge traffic enforcement, no go looking for drug deals late at night, not to be in control of situations, to just soak up the abuse day after day, treat everyone like they're Mr. Rogers or Stuart Smalley...

We all know officers like that, I can show you where some of their graves are.

Yes we hear this a lot don't we...about officers putting their lives on line.... The fact is, being a police officer is not even in the top ten most dangerous jobs.Yet we never here anyone standing up for fishermen or miners in the way they do for cops

Frankly, every call we go to is a gun call, every calm situation can get volatile in an instant...I've been to call where the abused wife calls 911 for help, you split them up and once you put the cuffs on him, she charges from the kitchen with a knife or a frying pan (the frying pan thing actually happened to me...not as funny as it sounds, there was hot oil in it.)

Yes I am sure there are such cases as you mention...just as there are cases where a son is beaten by a cop or a man tazered to death for not speaking English and not being understood.... I don't think these cases are that funny either... do you ? and there are many more of course...

Good honest citizens would marvel at why we do things the way we do...I expect most of your are, cause being a bad driver or getting a few tickets doesn't make someone a criminal or a bad person.

I personally believe that getting a ticket does not make you a bad driver... or traveller. Many tickets are false and I can vouch for that myself. People are not usually clear on their rights and this leads to them being easily ticketed and without recourse due to their lack of knowledge of their rights and how to interpret the real laws.

When you see what we see insofar as criminal gangs teaching their members how to act sweet around police to get our guard down, to shmooze in order to gain a tactical advantage...how many officers have been killed by not seeing it coming?

How many innocent victims have died or suffered abuse at the hands of those who are employed to protect them ? How many officers follow people and hunt them down after those people have dared to stand up for their rights?...

I also understand people think police have to much power...so what's the solution? No police? More controls? My God we have more policies, legislation and rules than ever. Everybody and their dog has a video phone and news media of police impropriety on the other side of the planet can make the local news.

Yes police have been given too much '''assumed''' power in my opinion. I think once the job went from being peace officers to policy enforcement officers the whole system went into decline. You cannot serve two masters... ie./ Either peace officers protect and serve as was the original purpose for 'the people' asking for protection.... or we simply have policy enforcement officers and bring in martial law government overuling people... which is treason.

How would you do the job?

There is not enough time for me to answer this question as I would like..and I would be banned from forum for my opinion. ( no free speech anymore)

Yes we are armed, cause at any time our lives can be on the line.

Any one of our lives can be on the line at any time, yet the de facto government 'orders' us to be disarmed.

I've heard comments that police have an unfair advantage...well "Hello! It's not a contest!" This is not a hockey fight. In the real world if you go down, the bad guy might finish you off, forever. So if we are arresting someone and they are turtling and laying on their arms, we can't assume he's just resisting...in an exercise at the police college, armed with a simunition (paintball gun), placed in that scenario, 24 of 27 officers who attempted to arrest that individual where shot first before they were able to react to realizing the accused was armed.

This is a big issue and I have many things I could say...but I cannot do that here.... all i will say is how many times has an officer fired shots into a residential neighbourhood and not been penalised for his dangerous and careless and deliberate action? Only recently 19 shots were fired in such a manner....

Tell Cst. Pham's widow he was one of those heavy handed cops...church going soccer coaching hero who's gun never made it out of the holster when he was struck in the neck by a high powered rifle round.

I belive the shooter knew this officer...and I am not privy to the full facts to make any determinations...but I do not hold with violence of any kind from police or otherwise.

I've worked in this profession for 22 years, I've swear I've always felt I've been fair, but you hear too often how I wasn't. I reduce tickets and have the defendants come to court to fight the break? Makes you not want to give people breaks...especially when it happens often, but if you give someone a tickets then you should have given them a break...I used to write 72 hr notices, but too many times the next week they had the cars remoded back to illegal....

What do you mean back to illegal? Maybe you should look into whether the car was unlawful..as the two are very different... You as a peace/policy enforcement officer are trained to only see things from a legal/business perspective and I believe you lose sight of many things due to the requirements you are expected to reach to sustain your depts.

We actually know several officers and I have to say for the most part I am not all that impressed with the types that currently man the streets. I hope you are one of the better ones...because the people definitely need some of those !

Think we are cynical?

Maybe you should stop wasting all your energy complaining about police and sign up, then you can speak from a perspective of enlightenment.

Again there are 29,000 police in Ontario, if you are saying we are all the same, then maybe it's cause we need to be to survive.

I would not work as a peace officer for a corporation only for the people.

Yes, they pick aggressive assertive authoritarian types...what else would fit the job? We are mostly university / college educated, involved in our communities and trust me if we didn't care, there are others job that don't take you away from your family, friends and other loved ones every other weekend, too many nights to count and most Christmases and other holidays.

There are many many jobs that take you away from your families on a regular basis,,,including nights weekends and holidays. I myself have worked in such a profession.

Have I met a few bad apples? Sure. But we have multiple levels of police complaints system and a court system to make sure people get a fair deal. But the 99.9% of the officers I've worked with care a lot more about you than you will ever care about them.

I think people would really like to have more respect for those who are supposed to protect them, people would really love not to be harassed for things that are not unlawful. To be treated respectfully instead of a potential villain. To not be arbitrarily detained randomly at ride programs when they are going about their daily business.... the list goes on...but until people are treated as the masters and not the servants the situation will rapidly decline and freedom as we have known it, will be lost.

PS

Canada is not a society, it is a corporation. You can find it listed on the stock market (Dun & Bradstreet)

You seem like a nice enough guy/cop .... maybe with a bit of rewiring ...who knows

....just answering his post mods.....

Well it appears we could wear out a couple of keyboards and having read your reply, you have a very interesting viewpoint which is clear you strongly believe in...however...I will reply on a few points...

As of about a year ago there is a civilian agency which handles police complaints in Ontario. Look it up. This independent civilian body is ANOTHER layer of police review.

Fishermen and miners lives are snuffed out because someone chose to end it...a rock or a fish has never consciously chosen to end someone's life.

As for RIDE programs infringing on your right to free movement, you are absolutely correct...but rights are not absolute...your rights often conflict with society's right to safety...the matter was reviewed by the supreme court who found while it IS an infringement of your rights, it is a reasonable one...

I think most reasonable people have no problem foregoing some rights in exchange for safety, security and peace.

Think about it, an arrest requires physical control (by definition an assault), detaining (right to movement infringed) and sanction (jail, probation) also infringement of rights...but tell me...if someone's beating on your with a 2X4 with rusty nails, what else can society offer to stop them?

So let me end by saying this cause we could go back and forth for weeks...

My old man was a cop, 32 years, I'm in my 22nd, and the job has changed...we are still doing much of the same things, enforcing the Criminal Code and Highway Traffic Act...while you may think it's changed in some drastic ways, the core of what we do is the same as policing has always been....

Now somebody please lock this thread! LOL!

FyreStorm wrote:Well it appears we could wear out a couple of keyboards and having read your reply, you have a very interesting viewpoint which is clear you strongly believe in...however...I will reply on a few points...

Yes funny that isn't it ? I wonder if the fact that the complaints dept is situated WITHIN the actual police station itself causes people to doubt its neutrality ? Also when people are faced with judges that often side with police officers no matter what, I doubt that places much faith in a system that is somewhat bias in favour of police officers.

As of about a year ago there is a civilian agency which handles police complaints in Ontario. Look it up. This independent civilian body is ANOTHER layer of police review.

Yes I looked into that civillian agency and it said that it first goes to the higher ranking officers to be sifted before it goes to anyone neutral (if of course we can be sure that they are actually neutral)

Yes we hear this a lot don't we...about officers putting their lives on line.... The fact is, being a police officer is not even in the top ten most dangerous jobs.Yet we never here anyone standing up for fishermen or miners in the way they do for cops

Fishermen and miners lives are snuffed out because someone chose to end it...a rock or a fish has never consciously chosen to end someone's life.

Actually fishermen miners pilots etc (all in top ten most dangerous jobs) ELECT to do that job just as peace officers do. The reasons are the same presumably, to feed their families and to be part of the brotherhood of man that provides a service to humanity. When police officers CHOOSE their profession as the others do, they know the risks involved. It is a higher risk for the professions I mentioned plus others than the profession of police officer...that is a fact not a criticism. We owe that fish for our dinner to fishermen....the fuel that powers and elements mined to miners... and our vacations in the sun to pilots. Life would be far bleaker without them not to mention the others on the dangerous jobs list. (I can link you the list if you like)

As for RIDE programs infringing on your right to free movement, you are absolutely correct...but rights are not absolute...your rights often conflict with society's right to safety...the matter was reviewed by the supreme court who found while it IS an infringement of your rights, it is a reasonable one...

Actually our God given rights and common law rights are most definitely absolute. I can link you the evidence if you like) ALL statutes SHOULD be based on common law (the law of the land) which is reflected in the Bill of Rights and Freedoms. In fact these laws precede government which is why they are irrefutable. Any law that pre-exists government is set in stone. The fact that statutes often violate those rights is another matter. (Which I have been told I cannot go into on here.)

I think most reasonable people have no problem foregoing some rights in exchange for safety, security and peace.

I think most intelligent people can figure out that their rights are being infringed upon, but many of them fear those carrying guns and tazers, therefore fall in line with the ones who are passively accepting the infringements as law. We should be thanking those who are prepared to fight for our rights and freedoms not refer to them as whackjobs

Think about it, an arrest requires physical control (by definition an assault), detaining (right to movement infringed) and sanction (jail, probation) also infringement of rights...but tell me...if someone's beating on your with a 2X4 with rusty nails, what else can society offer to stop them?

This is not always the case and I am guessing that you already know this.... I know as a witness that often times a police office violates our rights by assuming he himself has God given rights to abuse...he uses that badge to give himself assumed authority. I am not suggesting all officers do this..but many are afraid of repercussions if they don't go along with a senior officer..thay fail to realise that there are 'bystander liabilities' when they just watch or assist in a false arrest/assault. People need to know their rights and act upon them, sooner or later the police officers who are abusing will realise that they are not going to get away with it. It could be very costly to a police officer if a man/woman were to start using the system LEGALLY and LAWFULLY to get their rights upheld.

So let me end by saying this cause we could go back and forth for weeks...

My old man was a cop, 32 years, I'm in my 22nd, and the job has changed...we are still doing much of the same things, enforcing the Criminal Code and Highway Traffic Act...while you may think it's changed in some drastic ways, the core of what we do is the same as policing has always been....

I agree with you the system has changed, but I won;t go into anything else as I am not allowed to.... thank you for your work as a valued peace officer..... I ask that you look into the Charter of Rights and the common law as i think you personally would gain a lot of insight as you do seem to be a very reasonable man.

Now somebody please lock this thread! LOL!

Like I said we could and will agree to disagree...problem is most of this is based on perception and there really isn't any greater challenge than changing perceptions...

Some people don't believe that police internal complaints system worked or was a serious means of bringing complaints against police, thought that discipline administered by our supervisors was based on coverups and protection of the officer.

Well I can assure you, having made a visit to that office once or twice, it's anything but. Sanctions are serious and investigations are professional and more akin to guilty til proven innocent.

As for the courts, I almost burst out laughing when you said they side with the police...can I can tell you without reservation that we see it as anything but that...the average officer believes the courts are an increasingly uphill battle.

Ok hang on...you were serious right? You think that the courts side with police? I'm not sure if you are serious...

I think more and more judges are beginning to wake up to the fact that they can be held accountable for breaching their oath. Not all judges are immune to prosecution. For example..judges that have been lawyers (which is most judges...lawyers called to the bench) are NOT immune to prosecution.

I have been doing a lot of research on this matter as I am in the process of bringing one police officer to justice for a very serious crime. I will leave no stone unturned and I think all police officers should be aware that not all people will succumb to abuse and let it be....

Maybe it will make the wannabe police officers think twice before applying to join the police dept if they realise they will be held accountable. Leaving only the true decent peace loving but efficient officers on the payroll.

I guess we can agree to disagree on a few points..... and yes I am very serious

peace

"The problem to be solved is, not what form of government is perfect, but which of the forms is least imperfect."

James Madison (1809–1817)

"The ballot box is the surest arbiter of disputes among freemen."

James Buchanan (1857–1861)

"Law; an ordinance of reason for the common good, made by him who has care of the community"

-- St. Thomas Aquinas quotes (1225-1274)

The rule of law in place of force, always basic to my thinking, now takes on a new relevance in a world where, if war is to go, only law can replace it.

-- Roger Nash Baldwin

Democracy is not the law of the majority but the protection of the minority.

-- Albert Camus

"We are in bondage to the law so that we might be free."

-- Cicero (106-43 BC)

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--Carl Van Doren

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-- Albert Einstein

"There is no salvation for civilization, or even the human race, other than the creation of a world government."

-- Albert Einstein

The clearest way to show what the rule of law means to us in everyday life is to recall what has happened when there is no rule of law.

-- Dwight D. Eisenhower

"It is strangely absurd to suppose that a million of human beings, collected together, are not under the same moral laws which bind each of them separately."

-- Thomas Jefferson

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-- John Locke

"Liberty is the right to do as the law permits."

-- Montesquieu French jurist (1689-1755)

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-- William Penn

When freedom does not have a purpose, when it does not wish to know anything about the rule of law engraved in the hearts of men and women, when it does not listen to the voice of conscience, it turns against humanity and society.

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"We may not always agree on the law, but provided the law serves an articulable purpose, it is good for all."

FyreStorm (1969- )

If you like quotes .. I have dozens... real gems...

No doubt, I was just making a point...not trying to win the discussion...

The way we society function has been around for eons, it works for most of us most of the time...show mw a country or society in modern times that functions better than we do using your proposed system...

Back to the original topic, the real issue with police officers breaking the law is that no matter how many checks are in place, the system is inadequate to stop them or punish them.

This guy was given a free reign to beat up on cooperating suspects in vulnerable position. None of the other officers tried to stop him and some actually helped him. Yes, I'm aware that B.C. is either cursed with more brutal police practices or blessed with more video recording devices per capita, but they're supposed to play by the same rules as the rest of Canada.

Then you have cases where police constables don't suffer the same punishment for the same offense as other Ontario residents.

This guy didn't have to deal with having to blow a g-note for towing and impound. The force waited a couple of weeks before charging him with 172. That wouldn't happen to your average Joe.

While I can't dig up any relevant articles after some very quick googling, the first thing that the Crown did after Fantino was charged for influencing public officials was to drop the charges and look into taking that power away from regular citizens. I wonder what their reasons for doing it would be..............

You found a few articles which is good...but historically speaking people in a position of trust are punished more severely than the general public.

You haven't convinced yet that we don't get it worse.

You get into a collision, reporting center, no charges.

I get into one, charges plus internal discipline by way of police act charges. Yeah we're really ahead there. I saw the new youtube video of the officer kicking the guy in Victoria...it's amazing how many people have commented that it doesn't look that bad.

The fella who gets booted approaches the police in the middle of an arrest (what do you think his purpose was), his shirt is already torn, indicating perhaps he's already been in one scuffle, the officers order him to the ground, but have to push him down cause he goes 1/2 way and then stops to start his trial on the spot, they have to wrestle him to the ground and manage t get him on all fours which if you know anything about ground fighting is a good place to be...the officer order him to the ground again as he kicks him once (and seriously I'd rather that that a hockey check, the national pastime we cheer...) which we could argue wasn't much of a kick other than to get dummy's attention i.e. 'GET DOWN ON THE GROUND!'

The buddy STILL won't put his hands behind his back cause HE'S ARGUING WITH THE COPPERS!! HELLO!?

WHAT PART OF OBEY THE COMMAND OF THE POLICE OFFICER IS THIS NUMPTEE NOT GETTING?

Arguing happens later...you been ordered to the ground, "Yes sir!" No problems!

I'm glad a lot of others are seeing it the same way, one girl even says, it was a lame kick...

There isn't a jury in the world (comprised of law abiding citizens) that would convict on that...this guy need a 'resist arrest' charge...was he seriously thinking of having a discussion with the police in the middle of volatile downtown street with multiple arrests going on for lord knows what shennanigans went on before police arrived....

Give your head a shake...

And I'm curious, if the system is broken, what would you suggest?

Yes, I found a few articles and there are others out there. My point was not to point out every wrongdoing that every cop in Canada ever did and got away with. I just pointed out a couple of the ones that made it into the media.

And I'm curious, if the system is broken, what would you suggest?

1) If you're trying to defend yellow shirt's actions and most constables agree with your assessment of the situation, I'd start with better training. Battering a person not posing a threat to you just to ensure compliance may have been "ok" in the 70's, but it's just plain wrong. There were enough constables out there to grapple the guy into the "proper" level of submission, assuming that he wasn't just confused and wondering what they were doing to him and why. The guy looked like he was under the influence of alcohol, and if he had taken a few hits, he may have been suffering from the effects and may have been disoriented.

2) Once we get better training out of the way, camera technology is cheap enough for every constable to carry a camera on his person, while on the job. Remember that you guys are public servants and that requires total transparency. While I was in public service, in the interest of transparency, I had to fill out 4 forms to pay a person $3. It may be a bit cumbersome, but being on public payroll entails accountability to the taxpayer.

3) Delinquent law enforcement officers need to be prosecuted effectively. It looks like the cases hit snags each and every time they make it into court http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blog ... icers.aspx So don't just complain about speeders getting off on 11b. Plenty of your colleagues do. If not 11b, there's always poorly collected evidence.

Let's start with those 3 and see where they take us.. Chances are, there will be a great improvement in the law enforcement community's public image.