“Hwy 7 & Leslie - Left Turn Collision”

Original post "tagged" onto another member thread, therefore deleted (as per forum rules).

Post copied to here

HB

HTA Moderator Team

BB6 wrote:I just recently ran into a similar scenario heading east on Highway 7 turning left (north) onto Leslie.

The light well into amber and ready to turn red. 3/4 lanes had already come to a complete stop and 4th lane was empty (far right turn lane). I proceeded to make my left turn, when a car sped from the open lane running the light (which had turned red by that time) and I had clipped his rear wheel (which shows no sign of him trying to stop considering he was already more than a half a car past me by the time I hit him).

There were no external witnesses. Police officer gave me the ticket because I was making the left. What can I do here? Does anyone have any suggestions on how to fight the ticket?

Also I should mention that all the damage was on my front end bumper, there was nothing but a scratch on his rear wheel well. Just trying to paint the picture.

Thanks,

B.

What were you charged with? (I'm going to guess Left Turn Not In Safety.) Also, if I'm reading your post correctly, this is what happened:

- Waiting to turn left on Hwy 7 at Leslie (which is busy and has lots of crashes, all day, every day)

- Light turns yellow, light turns red

- Traffic in through lanes stops

- You proceed to start turning left

- Oncoming driver enters the right turning lane, uses it as a "through lane," cuts in front of stopped cars, blows the red (wouldn't surprise me)

- Crash ensues

Is that right?

There are two things. First, if you can testify to the fact that the driver did absolutely run the red light, that might help you. However, they'll likely have the other driver as a witness who will almost certainly steadfastly refuse to say that he did run the red. In fact, he'll probably insist that he entered on a green light. You'd then have to ask him: "So why was everyone else stopped?" Also you'd have to ask him: Why did you rnter the right turning lane and then drive straight through the intersection? Try to remember which vehicle types stopped in the other lanes. Re-visit the crash scene and take notes. Secondly, all of this becomes important not only for your defence, but also because your insurance company will consider you 100% at fault, UNLESS you show that the other driver ran the red, in which case HE becomes 100% at fault.

Your notes are correct other than the "Oncoming driver enters the right turning lane." I didn't see this, but I do recall seeing that there were at least 3 cars stopped. So if I revisit the scene or if anyone can remember if 7 has only 3 lanes or 4, then from this I can deduce whether or not he did use the right turn lane as a through lane and ran the red.

I can also tell you that the impact occurred well into the turn (85% completed). After impact, i came to complete stop and whre i ended up being was right next and parallel to the southbound left turning lane (perpendicular to the crosswalk, indicating that i had already straightened out my car from the turn).

Problem is how do I prove all this?

The other thing is, during the entire process, not once did the police officer ask ME what happened. He asked the other driver then gave me the ticket. He only asked me what happened AFTER he issued me the ticket. There were no witnesses that aided him in his decision (the officer confirmed this to me himself). So it seems like he issued me the ticket based solely on the fact that I was the one making the left.

I had not confronted him a the time as I was still shaken up from the impact.

"Proof"? Well you really can't "prove" anything any more than the other driver can. You could, however, ask the officer when he testifies as to why he issued the ticket BEFORE he talked to you. Unless there were other witnesses to corroborate the other driver's story (which, you said there weren't), I don't see why he wouldn't talk to both and then make a decision.

I think Hwy 7 has a designated left and right turning lane for Leslie Street, but what I'd recommend you do is re-visit the scene, and take some notes and photographs. If it comes down to your word versus the other driver's, you want to be as compelling a witness as possible. If the court finds you not guilty and the JP makes a ruling that he believes the other driver did indeed fail to stop for the red (he wouldn't find him guilty at your trial, but he can still say that he believes this to be true), you can then submit the transcripts to your insurance company as "proof" that the other driver is at fault.

Good luck and keep us posted. Also please feel free to search through this website for information you can use to assist your case. If you find the court system intimidating, you can also hire a paralegal.

Thank you very much for the info and encouragement Radar Identified.

Let me apologize for resurrecting old threads and for not keeping up to date. Also, I forgot my password and for some reason its not detecting my email address associated with that account so please excuse the creation of this new account.

I've so far received a court date and also requested disclosure. In my disclosure request, I have included that the prosecutor include the following:

-a full copy of the police officer's notes

-a copy of both sides of the officer's copy of the ticket (Notice of Offence)

-a typed version of any hand written notes

-witness will say statements

-witness statements

-any statements made by the defendant

-copies of the original notes of such statements and

-names and address, occupation and criminal record of the person providing such information.

In the disclosure sent to me, all that was sent me was the motor vehicle accident report, his hand written notes and expected witness list.

Three questions immediately come to mind -

1. His hand written notes were not typed out and some parts are very illegible - is it possible for him to send me something I can read? How do I request this?

2. His witness list only includes one witness which is the DRIVER and PASSENGER OF THE OTHER VEHICLE. Are they reliable witnesses? Are witnesses that are involved in the actual accident permissible??

3. No where did they include any of the expected witness' statements or will say statements as I specifically REQUESTED in the original disclosure request. Are any of the witness' statements therefore even permissible to be used since I was not given disclosure to this? Is it not my right to know what I am defending against? Is it possible to re-request these statements?

Any help is much appreciated!

1) If you can't read the notes, then you can certainly make another request for a typed copy. I'm guessing you've used the disclosure list from Ticketcombat and asked for everything. The problem is that many items on that list aren't applicable or relevant. Prosecutors see those requests and ignore many of the items since they assume it's just people copying and pasting. If you can justify the request (i.e. illegible notes) then you can rightfully request a typed copy.

2) Yes, they can certainly testify. The Justice of the Peace will be well aware that their testimony could be biased and will decide if he finds them to be credible and accepts their evidence.

3) The officer may never have obtained written statements from the witnesses. It's common practice to try, but doesn't always happen. Assuming they exist, you could certainly ask for an adjournment to review them, but a lack of written statements doesn't prevent the witnesses from actually giving evidence in Court. Their statements aren't what will be used as evidence, it's their testimony. Statements are typically more to refresh their memory about specific details (i.e. date & time) much like an officer uses his notes.

Thanks for the info.

The trial date is less than a month a way and I only received the disclosure today. What if there is not enough time to re-request disclosure of the missing items? Do I request for an adjournment now or during the trial?

Request an adjournment on the day of trial if the typed notes do not come through. Just explain that you cannot make full answer and defence without understanding the notes, and for that reason, it has to be legible, or the officer has to go through it with you. If the witnesses do not show up, they should withdraw the charge.