“Hta 144(18) Red Light - Failed To Stop.”

Hello, i'm new to this site. i had only ticket for speeding in 2002. and tonight i got ticket failed to stop at red light. the weather conditions were bad, (after Snow-maggedon) road was so slushy (Victoria St. at Frederick St. Kitchener). the speed limit was 60 km/hr. and i drove by speed limit. light turns amber and as i was approaching it, i hit a break for a moment and decided to go thru intersection. then i realized it was late amber, i was insie the intersection looking at yellow light clearly turning red. and on my left side i saw police car, and i realized that he may come after me to warn me about it but not give me ticket. he said it's bad conditions i should drive according to road conditions and it's Christmas season, i should slow down. i told him it was by speed limit, and i used my personal judgement to go thru intersection since it was at 2 am saturday morning. i went to civil engineering program at college before i switched to mechanical, and on highway construction they make speed limits according to all weather conditions, road shape, how busy they are and how close to urban areas, etc. he told me that i could drive 40 km/hr since roads are bad. since there was no traffic i decided to go thru intersection, he said "how could other vehicle manage to stop" i said he was behind me and he had more distance and time to make stop. he gave me ticket, told me options and let me go.

i want to go to trial and face the justice. what are my chances of winning. i have clean record since December 2002.

help please

thank you

One of the biggest mistakes you can make at roadside is correcting the cop. You can say "yes" or you can say "no". Anymore than that and you are asking for a ticket.

Yes you can fight your ticket and yes you can win.

You were traveling at or below the speed limit which you thought was appropriate for the conditions. The light turned amber, you started to break but realized you wouldn't stop in time so you proceeded with caution. You were not speeding, you were not driving recklessly. You did what any prudent driver would do in that situation.

But if you get on the stand and say any of what you wrote above, you will be found guilty.

TC just about covered everything. Speed limit is, in theory, the maximum speed that you may travel at under ideal conditions. You know that's not how it's set, but that's what the "eyes of the law" more or less view it as. The only thing that is materially relevant to your defence is that you were driving at a speed that you felt was reasonable and proper at the time, given the road, traffic and weather conditions.

TC offered a good defence for you. Just to be clear... you did say you entered the intersection on an amber, right? Entering the intersection on a red is not permissible, but on an amber light, in the circumstances TC described, is allowable and justifiable. Would you say that applies to your particular case?

One caveat: Sometimes for this particular offence, the Crown Prosecutor will offer the "sweet deal" of giving you "fail to stop for an amber," which is the same number of demerit points, and fine, as failing to stop for a red. Yeah.

Also... friend of mine who had 10 years of policing experience (Ottawa Police) once told me this: "If I stop someone, I usually give them a warning unless it's something really serious. If they correct me or tell me I'm wrong, what would've been a warning turns into a ticket. If they try to make me feel stupid or start getting abusive, I'm going to dig and find everything I can ticket them for."

Just for future if the traffic signal has a cross walk control device, it always starts flashing about 10 seconds prior to the traffic light turning to amber. This also gives a prudent / defensive driver an additional "heads up" the light is going to change and more time to slow down or (for bookm) speed up!

- Request disclosure.

- At trial (after Crown finishes questioning officer and it's your turn to question him) ask, "Officer, what was the precise condition of the road surface I was presented with immediately before the intersection?"

You know he can't answer that because he was never on that exact portion of road. If he tries to claim that it was probably the same as the road HE was on, NAIL 'IM! "You don't know the conditions I was faced with do you?"

Then STOP! Don't get all technical.

I wouldn't take the stand in your own defense if I were you. I have a feeling a good prosecutor will get you to boast about how much more you know about speed limits than law enforcement ( the officer and the Crown will have talked), then you're doomed. I would say very little. In closing (closing statement), "I approached the light. When I braked, the antilocks activated and I new the road had an icy spot and I felt strongly that stopping in time would be impossible. Due to the abnormal road conditions, I felt it was prudent to continue through on the yellow light."

I would not comment on your speed at all. If you don't take the stand, the Crown can't ask you about it. Focus on the road conditions that YOU were faced with at that EXACT place. ONLY YOU COULD KNOW ABOUT IT.

Just my opinion though. Feel free to work out your own defense.

Good Luck

Sean

OH! And Toronto has the right answer to controlled intersections... A "count-down" on the pedestrian part of the signal. Then you can better gauge just how MUCH you need to speed up to make it!!! (Juuuuust kiddin'!!.. <TV cured me!!

Thank you all again for posts. it has been helpful, now i'm not sure yet if i'm going to go by myself to the trial, or take representative in Kitchener, Waterloo area. can i make the decision within 15 days and then later decide to take paralegal representative to defend me, notify the Crown and then let them do the work?

Question for Bookm member, do you do paralegal work or no? if yes, please leave me your number so i can call and talk about details. thanks.

And, what can i do if they find me guilty, can i reject their decision, and go to another trial and then choose someone to defend me?!

thanks

Once you submit your ticket with a trial option, there will be delay of well more than 15 days. Usually the court does not take place for several months. You can get a paralegal at any time between that.

dugi wrote:Question for Bookm member, do you do paralegal work?...

No, I get tickets.... er' um... USED TO get tickets

I usually recommend defending yourself if there is no risk of an insurance increase. My company allows one minor ticket without consequence, so if my record is clear, I fight it myself. It's good to learn the process. Even a loss will better educate you for next time!

A paralegal will be MUCH more effective, but they'll cost over $400. Money well spent to keep a clean record.

yeah, you are right, i went to Pointts paralegal, they had season sale of $350 everything on court, and it will help me learn the system a bit, since i chose trial option. i have high hopes and chances of winning this ticket, since i have clean record. sometimes those idiots are so greedy for money, they will give you ticket for whatever and see if it works, they know if you chose to get representative, it works for all, money keeps coming in!! system is a rip off too!!