“Disobey Sign Fail To Stop At Pemberton Ave And Kenneth Ave”

Why the song and dance? File an 11B instead. It's been over 11 months.

Hi Radar,

Thanks for your suggestion and I have the following questions.

Q1) My charge was on Apr 21, 2010 and I went to court plead not guilty on May 03, 2010. Wihich date will the court use to count

the days ? Since the trial day is March 29, 2011 and if they use May 03, 2010, it is not 11 months yet. Can I still file an

11B ?

Q2) If I am going to file an 11b, should I do it now ? Also, should I turn down any plea-bargain with the prosecutor ?

Q3) What happens if the Justice turn down my 11b application ? Does it mean I have to accept the charge (i.e. 3 points & $110

fine) ?

Q4) Since I am filing 11b, should I still apply for the disclosure ?

Please advise. Thanks.

Hi Radar,

Just one more question. Based on ticketcombat's information, courts generally allow a maximum of 18 months between the date the offence was committed and the trial date. Is 11 months good enough to file 11b ?

maucheung wrote:Is it possible just simply tell the Crown Prosecutor that I accept the charge but since I have clear record for the past years, it will be very kind of him/her to charge me "disobey official sign" under Metro Toronto by-law 32-92

Yes that's certainly possible. You're not going to find case law on it because all that is entered is a plea, you don't know what the original charge was, plus cases where it's a simple plea aren't reported to the places that keep track of case law. Ultimately, it's up to the discretion of the prosecutor.

maucheung wrote:Hi Radar,

Thanks for your suggestion and I have the following questions.

Q1) My charge was on Apr 21, 2010 and I went to court plead not guilty on May 03, 2010. Wihich date will the court use to count

the days ? Since the trial day is March 29, 2011 and if they use May 03, 2010, it is not 11 months yet. Can I still file an

11B ?

Q2) If I am going to file an 11b, should I do it now ? Also, should I turn down any plea-bargain with the prosecutor ?

Q3) What happens if the Justice turn down my 11b application ? Does it mean I have to accept the charge (i.e. 3 points & $110

fine) ?

Q4) Since I am filing 11b, should I still apply for the disclosure ?

Please advise. Thanks.

Q5) Courts generally allow a maximum of 18 months between the date the offence was committed and the trial date. Is 11 months good enough to file 11b ?

Answers:

a1) Date of ticket, april 21 of 2010.

a2) you should submit the application for stay of proceedings (11b) at least 20 days before the trial. So you have plenty of time. But start preparing the form now.

There's a quick guide under the "Courts and Procedures" section.

a3) If the judge turns down your 11b motion then you will have to plead guilty or innocent.

a4) yes, ask for disclosure right away. See attached template.

a5)

The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedom states, in part:

Section 11: Any person charged with an offence has the right:

(d) – to be presumed innocent until proven guilty according to the law….

The Supreme Court of Canada has provided a guideline of 8 to 10 months in a decision called Morin

and the same court spoke to an administrative intake period, for each court in a case called Askov.

Based on the guideline and the intake time, Courts are providing Stay of Proceedings for trials which

have taken 11 to 14 months to proceed, after the initial charge (s) was laid. In Toronto, at the old city

hall, Prosecutors are allowing cases of 14 months or longer to be stayed (in lay persons terms – to have

your charge(s) suspended or dismissed).

Read this: http://scopezoom.com/11b/application-fo ... edings.pdf

In order to submit an "Application for Stay of Proceedings" the Courts expect you to provide this application in a specific format which has all the essential ingredients of an Application for Stay pursuant to Section 11 (b) of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. This is also referred to as a Constitutional challenge. In the case where your trial takes 11 to 14 months to proceed, after the initial charge, through no fault of your own, under section 24 (1)

As for the time at which the 11B clock starts, generally you're looking at the offence date. (Ontario Court of Appeal, R. v. Gregory McMillan)

As diehard suggests, put together a disclosure request. You should have everything lined up should the 11B fail. If they fail to provide disclosure, it makes the 11B case even more compelling. If you do get disclosure, you can then look at case law and statutes to see what defence(s) you have available to you. Look at the Courts and Procedures section of this website for guidance on the 11B filing and disclosure request.

Shoud I let the prosecutor that I have filed an 11b ? If the Justice turns down my 11b applicatoin, can I accept the prosecutor's offer during that time or will it be too late ? Is there anyway I know the police will show up or not before the trail starts. I do not think the prosector will let me know until the trail starts. Thanks.

maucheung wrote:Shoud I let the prosecutor that I have filed an 11b ? If the Justice turns down my 11b applicatoin, can I accept the prosecutor's offer during that time or will it be too late ? Is there anyway I know the police will show up or not before the trail starts. I do not think the prosector will let me know until the trail starts. Thanks.

Before the trial begins you have to approach the prosecutor and let her know of your intention to have the proceedings stayed. That's when you tell her that you have filed the 11b notice of application and served everyone at least 20 days ago (read 11b guide). Be careful because she will try to convince you to accept a plea-bargain (lesser charge and/or no demerit points). Be firm, you have filed the 11b and want the proceedings to be stayed.

When the trial starts and you are called, the prosecutor will most likely withdraw her case and you are free to go.

If not, she will try and convince the JP not to accept the 11b motion. (Radar, correct if I'm wrong). She can argue that 14 months is not too long.

Anyway, if the JP rejects your 11b motion then you will have to plead guilty or innocent.

That's why it's important to have requested the disclosure many times. In case you still haven't got it, you can ask for an adjournment (on the crown's clock).

Hi Diehard,

In my case, it is only 11 months. If the Justice turn down my 11b, I am planning to plead guilty. Does that mean I will pay the fine & get the 3 points ? I can no longer accept the prosecutor's offer or ask the Justice for lower penalty as I have a clear record in the past ?

Hi maechung -- I'm very curious to know how this turned out as I am facing a very similar situation (failed to see stop sign due to being in a new part of town, ran through). Because I am technically guilty I am hoping to negotiate a deal to be charged under a municipal bylaw to avoid a conviction on my file. Hope it turned out as you had hoped!

Hi Trucklet

After doing some research, I hired a ticket fighter to handle my case as I do not want to give myself too much pressure. It took 6 weeks for the fighter to get my disclosure and he followed up the disclosure once. I went to the court with the fighter. The fighter spoke to the police who agreed to charge me under a municipal bylaw instead of ‘Disobey sign fail to stop, however the prosecutor disagreed. The final result is my fine dropped from $110 to $60 and the 3 demerit points are dropped. The ticket fighter charged me $200 including the fine. Described below is the information I got from the fighter.

Depending on which court you are attending, the result will be different. Municipal bylaw is no longer accepted to replace other charge in the courts described below. Theoretically, I have been waiting for 11 months for my case and I am qualify to apply stay of proceedings (11b) but it takes too much work to apply for it.

Toronto Court : This is the toughest one. It is unlikely you will have the point dropped or reduced but you will be able to reduce the fine.

New Market/Richmond Hill Court : Most likely you will be charged for 2 points instead of 3. Not much chance for you to drop the points completely.

Markham Road Court : As of today, this is the most generous one. You might be able to drop the points completely.

If you get charged with Disobey Sign, take it. It's a no-points, non-criminal offense and does not go on your insurance. It is common to have "Failed to Stop" amended as "Disobey Sign" in court. With fines and fees, it'll run you about $75. Consider it an expensive parking ticket. On the other hand, if you were handed a FAILED TO STOP, which is what you should have been charged with by the sounds of it, you will want a lawyer to negotiate "Disobey Sign" with the prosecutor.

Disobey Sign s. 182 (2) of the HTA is $110 (set fine, victim surcharge, and court costs) and 2 demerit points.

Municipal "Disobey Sign" is 0 demerit points.

My conviction was "Improper Stop"

I've been reading your posts faithfully and am going to court tomorrow. Thank you so much for all your help. I'm just now looking for (I should've saved it somehow) what I'm supposed to say to the judge. I remember reading it was something like "your honour I'm not prepared to......as I have an 11b filed before the court". Is that correct? I've worked so hard on this and I don't want to screw it up now by saying the wrong thing.

Thanks again so much for all your help!

Maureen